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[Music]

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you're in the para cast the gold

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standard of paranormal radio and now

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here's gene Stein right now I have to

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say here in the para cast that Chris and

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I do not pretend to be perfect well

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Chris is perfect because he's a

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trickster and tricksters are always

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perfect I tend to be less perfect so we

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did make a mistake understandable

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mistake but a mistake nonetheless so

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last week I mentioned on the show an

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article it basically said Aztec is

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really Roswell at the Aztec case in New

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Mexico was just a distortion of the

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Roswell case there was an article yeah a

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good theory I like the theory yes it is

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very good theory I mentioned it to Kevin

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Randle and he seemed to think it was

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also an interesting point and worth

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discussing

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it appeared at a site called UFO

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iconoclast and we knew that Toni Berg

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alia was one of the contributors and we

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assumed or you assume anyway that Tony

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had written this article because this is

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the kind of contrary point of view he

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takes well after we did the show we

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since learned that Tony didn't write the

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article was written by the main

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proprietor of that blog Richard Reynolds

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yeah but so a good idea but Greg alia

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disavows it it's not his point of view

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well it'd be easy to just stick your

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name on something if you're the one that

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writes it I mean hello well he claims he

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puts his name on the stuff he writes and

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therefore that would mean that what that

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Richard Reynolds writes everything else

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I don't know it's confusing because if

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you look at the site there's no real

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name anywhere this is an email address

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the other they kind of have this sort of

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shadowy sort of presence and I guess

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they like it that way they they tend to

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be a little snooty I think at times rich

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Reynolds tends to talk down to people

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but they do come up with some good stuff

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and I do

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the site from time to time when articles

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are posted of course our friend lance

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moody is there our arch skeptic thorn in

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the side Lance has I think a page there

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if I'm not mistaken well Lance is fun I

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mean I enjoy hearing from him he likes

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to push buttons and sometimes he pushes

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the buttons in the wrong way in the

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wrong parts of the anatomy I guess yeah

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yeah I was gonna say look and sometimes

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he gets banned from our forums when he

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gets too far but he's back in again I

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think he's been banned three or four

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times lamppost one or two messages but

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you know our original co-host wanted me

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to ban him from the forums on several

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occasions we got really ornery but I

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haven't banned you from the forums yet

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Chris would you like to be we can I

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really have worked on the creative

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flaming techniques over the years and I

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do skirt close to the edge but I don't

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think I've really done anything that

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deserves to be looked at in terms of

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being banned we might have some posters

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that would disagree with that but you

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know when people push my buttons I do

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tend to push back so what can I say you

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know I'm only human I'm a passionate guy

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and I stick up for my friends right now

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it's also difficult we understand that

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when you bring someone on the show and

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he's your friend and now you're in a

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position where you have to question them

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but not just question them maybe be

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critical of what they have to say it's

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difficult but we try well they haven't

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Ron Ron James on I mean the guys I've

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worked for him off and on for eight

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years I mean he hired me to go out to to

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do I didn't work out in California what

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am I gonna do attack him I guess you

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know we did take exception to a few

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things that he had to say about the

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Citizen hearing and some of the

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controversy surrounding the inclusion of

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some presenters there and we didn't make

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any bones about it we we felt that there

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were some questionable selections there

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and he beg to differ and we we got into

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it a little bit and and discussed it

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just because I'm friends with somebody

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and a lot of the people that we have on

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the show I'd say a majority of them I

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have known for years in some cases and

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you know I do have a certain amount of

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respect just personal

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expect for people you know mama raised

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me right but you know occasionally you

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know we do get some flack on on the

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forums that we're we're being too soft

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on people we're not asking probing

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enough questions and you know I think

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Jean if you look at some of the podcasts

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out there and there's quite a number of

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them first of all they don't even know

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how to do a radio show the technical

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side of it is highly suspect but but

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some of these shows are just you know

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they just pander to the true believers

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in and we want to know we want to get to

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the core of an issue core of a subject

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we want to ascertain as many facts and

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and unassailable data as we possibly can

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separate that signal from the noise and

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I think we do a really good job doing

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that and some people if they take

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exception to that well that's their

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prerogative and you know this is barely

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still a free country and everybody does

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have you know some remaining freedom of

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speech rights so the same holds true

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here at the Peres cast yes the NSA is

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watching us real carefully but we do

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hope we have some sort of freedom to

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talk about the things we say by the way

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one of the figures in the book that

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we're going to discuss later in the show

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was actually visited a number of times

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by the government for things he said so

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that's fairly interesting and we'll get

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into that a little bit later because

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we're going to talk about two

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larger-than-life people whose lives were

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very much fiction stories a little bit

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later but let me get back to Ron James I

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think part of the problem of course is

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that he has a working relationship with

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people like Steven Bassett or maybe he's

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had too much of the kool-aid because he

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believes absolutely UFOs are spaceships

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the government knows what's going on we

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just have to get them to disclose it but

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you know there's also something which

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cites the definition of insanity is

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trying the same thing over and over

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again thinking there's going to be a

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different result no so I asked the

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people who say okay the government has

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this project or this knowledge inside

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about UFOs being spaceships tell us the

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truth let's get congressional hearings

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or something well let's go back to the

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1950s major Donald

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retired Marine Corps major wrote lots of

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articles about aviation new people in

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the military wrote these best-selling

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books about UFOs his first one summed up

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everything flying saucers from outer

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space 1950-51

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they're from outer space there is it the

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government is keeping a secret he had a

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book out called the flying saucer

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conspiracy he lobbied through this

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organization NICAP for years to get

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congressional hearings and finally

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because of the Michigan sightings in the

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1960s then congressman Gerald Ford

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arranged for those hearings we got the

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Condon committee arose over this

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congressional hearing of course they

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watch watch you mean if they whitewash

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the host subject so why do we assume 60

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years later 50 years later that if we do

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exactly what major Keough did in the 50s

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and 60s that we will get a different

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result why assume today will fare any

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better no I don't know that's the

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$64,000 question hi I just have this

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sneaking hunch that even if the

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government did know something and was

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willing to disclose it it wouldn't

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satisfy people out there i think the

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real down and dirty data information I

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think is held in the hands of the

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aerospace companies and in the private

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sector and I think that most political

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figures who come and go don't have a

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need to know in the eyes of the people

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that are controlling the information and

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and I think that the more you know about

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this subject I've said this many times

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the more you know about the subject is

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is in proportion to how confused you are

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and I think the government the military

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in the aerospace companies that do know

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it quite a bit more about this of it

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that's why they're even more confused

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can we go round and round every so often

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on this subject and and you're right

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gene the definition of insanity is

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trying trying the same thing over and

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over again and expecting a different

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result and it's just it's not gonna

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happen what's gonna happen next is we're

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going to talk about a book called war

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over Lemuria subtitled Richard shaver

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Ray Palmer

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and the strangest chapter of 1940

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science fiction by Richard Toronto and

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remember Schaffer and Palmer were

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responsible for introducing countless

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numbers of people to the possibility of

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UFOs or flying saucers so there are lots

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and lots that I say lots of important

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things to talk about here they were

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larger-than-life figures fascinating our

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guests will be richard toronto the

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author and geneva Hagen who with me

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co-edited caveat emptor magazine we both

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knew shaver and she's got great insights

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all this so much more coming you're in

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the para cast

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okay so who is watching your home when

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you're not there help protect your home

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with a security system monitored by ADT

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it's the leader in home security

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remember ADT is a number one monitoring

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service in the country

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it comes with world-famous ADT yard

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signs the monitoring cost is just one

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dollar a day you probably pay more for

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coffee this is the safety for your

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family and your possessions you can save

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up to 20% on homeowners insurance just

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call protect your home your authorized

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ADT dealer call now and get eight

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hundred fifty dollars of equipment and

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activation free call one eight six six

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seven seven eight three one two seven

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call one eight six six seven seven eight

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three one two seven and here's our fast

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disclaimer $99 installation charge 36

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month monitoring agreement at thirty

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five to thirty nine dollars per month

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call four terms and conditions and

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license numbers friends this is Alex

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Jones for Midas resources dot-com for

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more than 15 years I have exclusively

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used Midas resources for all my precious

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metal needs whether it's bullion or

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collectibles you're looking for

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Midas resources is simply the best I own

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my gold is a hedge against inflation

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this Federal Reserve fiat currency could

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go the way of the deutsche mark and the

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Weimar Republic anytime in these

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historically dangerous times it makes

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sense to physically hold gold and silver

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- already has some of the best deals in

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the industry but if you give them a call

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and mention the radio special it will

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give you a list of the day's super

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319
00:14:05,500 --> 00:14:03,500
we'd like to hear from you if you have a

320
00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:05,510
comment a question about the para caste

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00:14:10,630 --> 00:14:09,170
send it to news at the para caste calm

322
00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:10,640
that's news

323
00:14:15,820 --> 00:14:13,610
at the para caste calm and don't forget

324
00:14:21,190 --> 00:14:15,830
to visit our famous para caste community

325
00:14:23,590 --> 00:14:21,200
forums at forum the para caste calm on

326
00:14:26,530 --> 00:14:23,600
the para caste this week we're gonna go

327
00:14:30,610 --> 00:14:26,540
back in time but we're going to tell you

328
00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:30,620
how the UFO field began and also what we

329
00:14:34,420 --> 00:14:32,690
call here in Richard Toronto's book the

330
00:14:37,139 --> 00:14:34,430
strangest chapter of forty science

331
00:14:40,510 --> 00:14:37,149
fiction the feeling I have is that

332
00:14:43,949 --> 00:14:40,520
without a guy like Ray Palmer and the

333
00:14:46,030 --> 00:14:43,959
people who followed him some of the

334
00:14:48,519 --> 00:14:46,040
popularization of science fiction would

335
00:14:51,730 --> 00:14:48,529
not have occurred it would have been the

336
00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:51,740
province of a few dozen fans and by

337
00:14:56,019 --> 00:14:53,690
making it mass-market it paved the way

338
00:14:59,139 --> 00:14:56,029
for Forbidden Planet movies like that in

339
00:15:01,329 --> 00:14:59,149
the 50s in the seventies star wars of

340
00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:01,339
the sixties Star Trek continuing to the

341
00:15:07,030 --> 00:15:04,610
present day all this came out of the

342
00:15:10,389 --> 00:15:07,040
kind of science fiction that Ray Palmer

343
00:15:13,030 --> 00:15:10,399
championed richard toronto joins us also

344
00:15:15,819 --> 00:15:13,040
Geneva Haig and Richard I loved your

345
00:15:17,500 --> 00:15:15,829
book every word of it and it's an

346
00:15:19,329 --> 00:15:17,510
incredible amount of research because

347
00:15:21,699 --> 00:15:19,339
Schaffer and Palmer were

348
00:15:23,230 --> 00:15:21,709
larger-than-life figures and a lot of

349
00:15:26,319 --> 00:15:23,240
the things they told about themselves

350
00:15:28,269 --> 00:15:26,329
were fiction right Richard this is true

351
00:15:31,180 --> 00:15:28,279
this is what made it so difficult to

352
00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:31,190
write that book went the more you look

353
00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:34,130
into both characters the more you

354
00:15:36,910 --> 00:15:36,170
realize they had certain things in

355
00:15:40,329 --> 00:15:36,920
common

356
00:15:42,370 --> 00:15:40,339
now when when Ray Palmer was growing up

357
00:15:46,090 --> 00:15:42,380
everybody knows the story about his

358
00:15:48,490 --> 00:15:46,100
accident and how horrible it was and he

359
00:15:51,790 --> 00:15:48,500
goes into it and his autobiography you

360
00:15:55,389 --> 00:15:51,800
know all that part and a couple of times

361
00:15:59,470 --> 00:15:55,399
people like Howard Brown and and Paul

362
00:16:03,460 --> 00:15:59,480
Pearman and others claimed that that

363
00:16:05,769 --> 00:16:03,470
accident made him bitter well it didn't

364
00:16:09,670 --> 00:16:05,779
really make him bitter but no one really

365
00:16:12,350 --> 00:16:09,680
understood how trauma like that and

366
00:16:16,100 --> 00:16:12,360
that's what it was it was severe

367
00:16:20,300 --> 00:16:16,110
to a very young boy how that kind of

368
00:16:22,940 --> 00:16:20,310
trauma now called PTSD how it could

369
00:16:25,190 --> 00:16:22,950
affect one's thinking and outlook on the

370
00:16:29,389 --> 00:16:25,200
world and that's what I think

371
00:16:33,139 --> 00:16:29,399
warmed ray Palmer's outlook and a lot of

372
00:16:35,889 --> 00:16:33,149
it had to do with creating the world

373
00:16:38,930 --> 00:16:35,899
like he would rather have it be and

374
00:16:41,389 --> 00:16:38,940
that's what made it really difficult to

375
00:16:44,300 --> 00:16:41,399
separate back from fiction when I wrote

376
00:16:45,710 --> 00:16:44,310
it where did you have to go to put the

377
00:16:48,139 --> 00:16:45,720
true story together we you know what

378
00:16:50,930 --> 00:16:48,149
Palmer wrote because all that stuff's

379
00:16:53,060 --> 00:16:50,940
available but how did you go back to

380
00:16:55,759 --> 00:16:53,070
find the facts about his background

381
00:16:57,440 --> 00:16:55,769
experiences and amazing stories about

382
00:17:00,440 --> 00:16:57,450
fate magazine about the stuff he did

383
00:17:03,139 --> 00:17:00,450
thereafter well and you know when he

384
00:17:05,630 --> 00:17:03,149
wrote Martian diary which became part of

385
00:17:09,350 --> 00:17:05,640
the secret world you know it had Richard

386
00:17:12,500 --> 00:17:09,360
shavers rock book book in there he said

387
00:17:16,669 --> 00:17:12,510
that was going to be the official final

388
00:17:20,210 --> 00:17:16,679
say on the truth he was gonna reveal all

389
00:17:22,159 --> 00:17:20,220
this was the actual fact and nobody

390
00:17:24,049 --> 00:17:22,169
could discount it after that because

391
00:17:26,360 --> 00:17:24,059
this was his a personal version of the

392
00:17:29,299 --> 00:17:26,370
story well there were still so many

393
00:17:31,270 --> 00:17:29,309
discrepancies and non facts in there it

394
00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:31,280
was pathetic

395
00:17:37,580 --> 00:17:35,010
like his education he claimed he

396
00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:37,590
graduated high school he didn't graduate

397
00:17:46,549 --> 00:17:42,330
from high school I had to call every

398
00:17:49,700 --> 00:17:46,559
school in Milwaukee that was existent at

399
00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:49,710
the time he was a student to find out

400
00:17:56,150 --> 00:17:52,010
where he was and that took me a while

401
00:17:59,060 --> 00:17:56,160
and a lot of people wouldn't talk to me

402
00:18:01,370 --> 00:17:59,070
about it but piece by piece I got it he

403
00:18:04,940 --> 00:18:01,380
he basically went to work at about 16

404
00:18:06,950 --> 00:18:04,950
years old being a bookkeeper for the PJ

405
00:18:08,690 --> 00:18:06,960
ladies company you remember that story

406
00:18:11,870 --> 00:18:08,700
one thing we should mention for people

407
00:18:14,090 --> 00:18:11,880
who don't know the full story as a small

408
00:18:17,330 --> 00:18:14,100
child Ray Palmer was hit I guess by a

409
00:18:20,120 --> 00:18:17,340
truck suffered severe injuries severe

410
00:18:22,940 --> 00:18:20,130
deformity he was basically never grew

411
00:18:25,580 --> 00:18:22,950
beyond four feet eight inches he was

412
00:18:26,410 --> 00:18:25,590
also a hunchback although he did stand

413
00:18:29,090 --> 00:18:26,420
upright

414
00:18:30,590 --> 00:18:29,100
and you think of course when they say

415
00:18:32,330 --> 00:18:30,600
hunchback they think of the movie The

416
00:18:34,700 --> 00:18:32,340
Hunchback of Notre Dame or something

417
00:18:36,620 --> 00:18:34,710
like that but you know he made it

418
00:18:39,650 --> 00:18:36,630
through life he was married he had a

419
00:18:44,410 --> 00:18:39,660
great family despite his deformity but

420
00:18:47,780 --> 00:18:44,420
it also made him I suppose defensive or

421
00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:47,790
overcompensating in his behavior well if

422
00:18:53,690 --> 00:18:50,970
you think about it well before the

423
00:18:57,080 --> 00:18:53,700
accident he was like the little child

424
00:19:00,470 --> 00:18:57,090
prodigy his mother entered them in this

425
00:19:05,180 --> 00:19:00,480
contest where he was the healthy baby

426
00:19:08,660 --> 00:19:05,190
for the Gridley dairy contest you know

427
00:19:11,210 --> 00:19:08,670
and his picture was on milk bottle caps

428
00:19:12,710 --> 00:19:11,220
and he was just the epitome of the

429
00:19:16,310 --> 00:19:12,720
perfect little baby

430
00:19:17,660 --> 00:19:16,320
well that affects you as a kid too you

431
00:19:20,450 --> 00:19:17,670
know you're thinking well I'm pretty

432
00:19:23,210 --> 00:19:20,460
special I'm a perfect baby and then he

433
00:19:25,910 --> 00:19:23,220
gets in this accident well the accident

434
00:19:27,860 --> 00:19:25,920
was he somehow wedged his foot in the

435
00:19:31,190 --> 00:19:27,870
wooden spokes of this truck

436
00:19:34,250 --> 00:19:31,200
now even even the type of truck it is it

437
00:19:36,650 --> 00:19:34,260
it goes from it runs the gamut between a

438
00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:36,660
milk truck a bush butcher truck a beer

439
00:19:42,710 --> 00:19:39,770
truck no one seems to have the exact

440
00:19:46,100 --> 00:19:42,720
actual type of truck it was but it was a

441
00:19:48,770 --> 00:19:46,110
truck he put his leg in there and the

442
00:19:51,020 --> 00:19:48,780
truck took off and so what that did it

443
00:19:53,510 --> 00:19:51,030
pulled him up you know those were big

444
00:19:56,170 --> 00:19:53,520
wheels in those days pulled him up and

445
00:19:59,000 --> 00:19:56,180
then whacked him down into the pavement

446
00:20:02,420 --> 00:19:59,010
headfirst and this happened a few times

447
00:20:05,180 --> 00:20:02,430
over and over so it fractured his spine

448
00:20:07,850 --> 00:20:05,190
basically broke his back and his father

449
00:20:10,070 --> 00:20:07,860
wouldn't take him to the hospital now

450
00:20:12,290 --> 00:20:10,080
this is the other thing about Ray

451
00:20:14,360 --> 00:20:12,300
Palmer's history that the relationship

452
00:20:18,500 --> 00:20:14,370
with his father which was not good his

453
00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:18,510
father was an alcoholic and because his

454
00:20:24,290 --> 00:20:20,850
father wouldn't face the facts

455
00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:24,300
Ray Palmer basically was doomed to to

456
00:20:28,550 --> 00:20:26,730
this life of deformity is that another

457
00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:28,560
reason why he would maybe retreat into

458
00:20:33,230 --> 00:20:30,930
himself expand his imagination and

459
00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:33,240
become a science-fiction fan and later a

460
00:20:37,430 --> 00:20:34,970
science fiction editor and writer

461
00:20:39,539 --> 00:20:37,440
because he could create his own

462
00:20:42,369 --> 00:20:39,549
imaginary universe and exist with

463
00:20:44,769 --> 00:20:42,379
exactly and you know he spent a lot of

464
00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:44,779
time alone because he was stuck in that

465
00:20:49,029 --> 00:20:46,970
hammock like thing because he wasn't

466
00:20:51,789 --> 00:20:49,039
supposed to move but then periodically

467
00:20:55,419 --> 00:20:51,799
his father thought he should come out

468
00:20:58,060 --> 00:20:55,429
and socialize and everything well how do

469
00:21:00,700 --> 00:20:58,070
you go from being the perfect baby and

470
00:21:03,310 --> 00:21:00,710
then thrown into the world looking like

471
00:21:04,869 --> 00:21:03,320
you know a little hunchback you know and

472
00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:04,879
people are not going to react the same

473
00:21:10,360 --> 00:21:07,490
way to you as they did before people

474
00:21:12,399 --> 00:21:10,370
stared one of the things he hated was

475
00:21:14,139 --> 00:21:12,409
the look of pity in people's eyes you

476
00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:14,149
know family friends would come over and

477
00:21:20,590 --> 00:21:16,850
they would pity him and he hated that

478
00:21:23,409 --> 00:21:20,600
which is what spurred him on to try and

479
00:21:24,850 --> 00:21:23,419
prove everybody was wrong about its

480
00:21:27,519 --> 00:21:24,860
future they thought he was going to be

481
00:21:28,690 --> 00:21:27,529
you know some selling apples on

482
00:21:30,159 --> 00:21:28,700
the corner or something

483
00:21:32,499 --> 00:21:30,169
and the other thing is of course is that

484
00:21:34,060 --> 00:21:32,509
over his life on a number of occasions

485
00:21:36,220 --> 00:21:34,070
we're not going to go into those details

486
00:21:38,980 --> 00:21:36,230
that's in the book they pretty well gave

487
00:21:41,610 --> 00:21:38,990
him up for dead yet he hung out till he

488
00:21:44,289 --> 00:21:41,620
was in his late 60s which was probably

489
00:21:45,220 --> 00:21:44,299
six decades longer than people might

490
00:21:47,139 --> 00:21:45,230
have thought he would have lived

491
00:21:48,940 --> 00:21:47,149
okay so we have Ray Palmer becomes a

492
00:21:52,299 --> 00:21:48,950
science-fiction fan and later becomes

493
00:21:54,820 --> 00:21:52,309
editor of amazing stories and fantastic

494
00:21:57,669 --> 00:21:54,830
and all those great Ziff Davis titles in

495
00:22:00,580 --> 00:21:57,679
the late 30s then we have the parallel

496
00:22:03,220 --> 00:22:00,590
universe there of Richard Schafer who

497
00:22:05,139 --> 00:22:03,230
also had a fairly interesting background

498
00:22:06,159 --> 00:22:05,149
let's talk a little bit about that we're

499
00:22:09,039 --> 00:22:06,169
gonna have to do a break in a few

500
00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:09,049
seconds so maybe I'll just point out

501
00:22:15,159 --> 00:22:11,450
something here that our listeners may

502
00:22:16,629 --> 00:22:15,169
know I met Ray Palmer in 1965 talked to

503
00:22:20,049 --> 00:22:16,639
him on the phone a few times after that

504
00:22:22,539 --> 00:22:20,059
Geneva and I met Richard shaver at his

505
00:22:24,519 --> 00:22:22,549
cottage in Summit Arkansas back in the

506
00:22:26,019 --> 00:22:24,529
early 70s a few years before his death

507
00:22:28,269 --> 00:22:26,029
and later on Geneva will tell you about

508
00:22:30,879 --> 00:22:28,279
that so we have some fascinating

509
00:22:32,950 --> 00:22:30,889
remembrances but right now in our next

510
00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:32,960
segment we'll be focusing a little bit

511
00:22:38,230 --> 00:22:35,330
about the life of Richard shaver how he

512
00:22:40,419 --> 00:22:38,240
got started the book is war over Lemuria

513
00:22:42,580 --> 00:22:40,429
from Richard Toronto we also have Geneva

514
00:22:48,180 --> 00:22:42,590
Hagan joining gene and Chris you're in

515
00:22:54,940 --> 00:22:51,760
the GZ and Radio Network providing the

516
00:22:59,500 --> 00:22:54,950
world with hard-hitting talk radio G C

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mail comm oklahoma reminds us there are

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many kinds of storms in our lives

541
00:24:08,710 --> 00:24:06,290
nature regularly senses destructive

542
00:24:11,410 --> 00:24:08,720
storms 24 hours before a storm strikes

543
00:24:13,810 --> 00:24:11,420
people panic it would be wise to prepare

544
00:24:15,790 --> 00:24:13,820
ahead of the panicked curve the food

545
00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:15,800
price storm from drought and livestock

546
00:24:20,350 --> 00:24:18,410
problems is forecast to hit ridiculous

547
00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:20,360
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548
00:24:23,830 --> 00:24:21,890
if they'll really be a problem

549
00:24:26,380 --> 00:24:23,840
he Foods Direct has a plan to maximize

550
00:24:29,170 --> 00:24:26,390
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551
00:24:31,660 --> 00:24:29,180
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552
00:24:33,670 --> 00:24:31,670
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553
00:24:37,090 --> 00:24:33,680
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554
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555
00:24:41,140 --> 00:24:38,660
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556
00:24:43,360 --> 00:24:41,150
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557
00:24:46,300 --> 00:24:43,370
you ordered food return the food

558
00:24:50,050 --> 00:24:46,310
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559
00:24:52,740 --> 00:24:50,060
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560
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561
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562
00:25:02,380 --> 00:25:00,470
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563
00:25:04,149 --> 00:25:02,390
know that murky water purification

564
00:25:06,549 --> 00:25:04,159
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565
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:06,559
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566
00:25:10,269 --> 00:25:08,450
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567
00:25:12,669 --> 00:25:10,279
thousands of satisfied customers

568
00:25:14,860 --> 00:25:12,679
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569
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:14,870
for berkey water filtration systems the

570
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571
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572
00:25:22,930 --> 00:25:20,510
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573
00:25:25,149 --> 00:25:22,940
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574
00:25:27,370 --> 00:25:25,159
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575
00:25:29,409 --> 00:25:27,380
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576
00:25:31,269 --> 00:25:29,419
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577
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578
00:25:35,710 --> 00:25:33,950
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579
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:35,720
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580
00:25:39,190 --> 00:25:37,490
your order free of charge with the

581
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:39,200
purchase of a per key light the Berkey

582
00:25:43,419 --> 00:25:41,090
guy is also offering a set of fluoride

583
00:25:45,730 --> 00:25:43,429
and arsenic filters for only $39.99

584
00:25:46,269 --> 00:25:45,740
that's over 30 percent off the retail

585
00:25:48,490 --> 00:25:46,279
price

586
00:25:50,769 --> 00:25:48,500
call the Berkey guy at one eight seven

587
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:50,779
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588
00:25:55,659 --> 00:25:52,970
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589
00:25:58,269 --> 00:25:55,669
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590
00:25:59,680 --> 00:25:58,279
online at Gober Keep Calm that's Gober

591
00:26:02,080 --> 00:25:59,690
Keep Calm today

592
00:26:04,269 --> 00:26:02,090
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593
00:26:06,850 --> 00:26:04,279
and elimination of toxins that bears

594
00:26:08,700 --> 00:26:06,860
repeating digestive health is the key to

595
00:26:11,500 --> 00:26:08,710
wellness an elimination of toxins and

596
00:26:14,139 --> 00:26:11,510
pro-am one daily probiotic cleanse is

597
00:26:16,450 --> 00:26:14,149
the key to digestive health pro-am one

598
00:26:18,190 --> 00:26:16,460
is a powerful liquid probiotic strong

599
00:26:21,100 --> 00:26:18,200
enough to cleanse gentle enough to use

600
00:26:23,139 --> 00:26:21,110
every day pro em1 as dairy wheat and soy

601
00:26:24,730 --> 00:26:23,149
free contains all-natural and certified

602
00:26:26,139 --> 00:26:24,740
organic ingredients contains no

603
00:26:27,789 --> 00:26:26,149
preservatives or animal products

604
00:26:29,799 --> 00:26:27,799
supports a healthy digestive and immune

605
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:29,809
system supports weight loss improves

606
00:26:33,370 --> 00:26:31,610
absorption of food nutrients aids and

607
00:26:35,620 --> 00:26:33,380
controlling yeast infections is never

608
00:26:37,330 --> 00:26:35,630
freeze-dried and uses three groups of

609
00:26:39,519 --> 00:26:37,340
live viable beneficial microbes to

610
00:26:41,500 --> 00:26:39,529
cleanse and remove toxins order pro a.m.

611
00:26:46,899 --> 00:26:41,510
on daily probiotic cleanse at Tarragona

612
00:26:51,639 --> 00:26:46,909
calm spelled te ra gan IX calm Tarragona

613
00:26:53,620 --> 00:26:51,649
calm or call toll-free 866 3 6 9 3 6 7 8

614
00:26:56,919 --> 00:26:53,630
that's eight six six three six nine

615
00:27:03,570 --> 00:26:56,929
three six seven eight pro-am one the raw

616
00:27:08,649 --> 00:27:06,490
[Music]

617
00:27:10,050 --> 00:27:08,659
hi my name is Richard Dolan you're

618
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:10,060
listening to the Peres Cass

619
00:27:20,530 --> 00:27:18,010
[Music]

620
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:20,540
richard toronto is with us we have

621
00:27:25,450 --> 00:27:23,450
Geneva Hagen joining Jean and Chris we

622
00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:25,460
talked about Richard shaver and Ray

623
00:27:30,610 --> 00:27:27,050
Palmer and all the wacky stuff that

624
00:27:34,170 --> 00:27:30,620
happened in 1940 science fiction so now

625
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:34,180
the course of life Richard shaver

626
00:27:38,860 --> 00:27:36,530
Richard Toronto tell us a little bit

627
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:38,870
about his background and what made him

628
00:27:44,740 --> 00:27:41,930
as they say approached someone like Ray

629
00:27:47,470 --> 00:27:44,750
Palmer at the point that Richard shaver

630
00:27:50,020 --> 00:27:47,480
met Ray Palmer through the mail of

631
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:50,030
course shaver had just gotten out of

632
00:27:57,030 --> 00:27:52,850
Ionia State Hospital for the criminally

633
00:28:00,730 --> 00:27:57,040
insane he got out of there in May 1943

634
00:28:04,690 --> 00:28:00,740
after that shaver went back to his

635
00:28:06,669 --> 00:28:04,700
parents home in Bartow Pennsylvania it

636
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:06,679
was they had a little three or four acre

637
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:09,410
farm there and it was kind of a restful

638
00:28:15,120 --> 00:28:11,330
place for shaver to be and he was

639
00:28:17,740 --> 00:28:15,130
recovering from ten about ten years in

640
00:28:21,930 --> 00:28:17,750
incarcerated although he had escaped a

641
00:28:27,220 --> 00:28:21,940
few times the longest being about from

642
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:27,230
1937 to sometime in 1938 so almost a

643
00:28:32,710 --> 00:28:30,410
year he was he was on the lam now we

644
00:28:34,870 --> 00:28:32,720
should tell our listeners that at least

645
00:28:36,100 --> 00:28:34,880
the first incarceration he may have been

646
00:28:40,419 --> 00:28:36,110
railroaded to that

647
00:28:43,660 --> 00:28:40,429
why was he incarcerated well he started

648
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:43,670
hearing voices now as everybody know

649
00:28:48,970 --> 00:28:46,130
that the story goes that he started

650
00:28:53,620 --> 00:28:48,980
hearing it through his welding gun when

651
00:28:57,940 --> 00:28:53,630
the problem started let's say he was

652
00:29:01,900 --> 00:28:57,950
married to Sophie garbage shaver

653
00:29:04,930 --> 00:29:01,910
she was a young Communist League member

654
00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:04,940
and shaver joined the party you

655
00:29:09,340 --> 00:29:06,290
understand here a lot of people in the

656
00:29:11,110 --> 00:29:09,350
30s joined the Communist Party today you

657
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:11,120
know you think about all this say what

658
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:12,650
were they doing they wanted to destroy

659
00:29:19,210 --> 00:29:16,090
this country no this was for a while a

660
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:19,220
fairly normal thing to happen for a lot

661
00:29:25,930 --> 00:29:22,730
of people oh yeah this was before the

662
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:25,940
Cold War and communists the Communist

663
00:29:32,049 --> 00:29:29,690
Party and socialism was not was not seen

664
00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:32,059
then as it's seen now it's been

665
00:29:38,139 --> 00:29:35,450
demonized now since the Cold War but in

666
00:29:40,570 --> 00:29:38,149
those days shaver was probably coming

667
00:29:44,379 --> 00:29:40,580
from a place like Jack London you know

668
00:29:46,570 --> 00:29:44,389
in his writings or maybe D Traven these

669
00:29:48,340 --> 00:29:46,580
were people that were looking out for

670
00:29:52,139 --> 00:29:48,350
the working man and at that point in

671
00:29:57,009 --> 00:29:52,149
time corporate America was really

672
00:29:59,289 --> 00:29:57,019
dropping on the workingman they they had

673
00:30:02,409 --> 00:29:59,299
no say this was when unions were just

674
00:30:06,909 --> 00:30:02,419
beginning shaver was living in Detroit

675
00:30:10,659 --> 00:30:06,919
in the early 30s and in 1932 had the

676
00:30:14,259 --> 00:30:10,669
ford massacre happened and that's when a

677
00:30:16,539 --> 00:30:14,269
bunch of protesters during the

678
00:30:19,570 --> 00:30:16,549
Depression march it was a peaceful

679
00:30:21,759 --> 00:30:19,580
demonstration up to a point when the

680
00:30:23,740 --> 00:30:21,769
police came and then they started

681
00:30:27,629 --> 00:30:23,750
throwing dirt clods at the police and

682
00:30:32,139 --> 00:30:27,639
then the police opened up and so did

683
00:30:35,350 --> 00:30:32,149
towards attention and few people were

684
00:30:38,950 --> 00:30:35,360
killed a lot of people injured and this

685
00:30:42,159 --> 00:30:38,960
is what caused a certain solidarity

686
00:30:44,980 --> 00:30:42,169
among communists in Detroit at that time

687
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:44,990
a lot of the people who worked on the

688
00:30:48,999 --> 00:30:46,610
assembly lines were communist and

689
00:30:51,190 --> 00:30:49,009
socialist but it like I say it wasn't

690
00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:51,200
the same kind of deal as it is now

691
00:30:59,740 --> 00:30:55,730
okay so shaver is hearing voices right

692
00:31:04,180 --> 00:30:59,750
so what happened was shavers brother

693
00:31:05,950 --> 00:31:04,190
Kate died that was one thing and another

694
00:31:09,490 --> 00:31:05,960
thing I found out was there was an

695
00:31:12,190 --> 00:31:09,500
extreme stress going on between the

696
00:31:15,519 --> 00:31:12,200
shaver family which he was very tight

697
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:15,529
with his family and the garbage family

698
00:31:20,499 --> 00:31:17,570
who's an old country Russian Jewish

699
00:31:22,149 --> 00:31:20,509
family they were not happy about the

700
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:22,159
marriage and neither was the shaver

701
00:31:30,789 --> 00:31:25,370
family happy about their marriage they

702
00:31:32,980 --> 00:31:30,799
got married in 1932 I believe so they

703
00:31:35,919 --> 00:31:32,990
had a lot of pressure from both sides of

704
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:35,929
the family then brother Tate dies then

705
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:38,450
the census story goes

706
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:41,330
Richard shaver just flipped out and

707
00:31:45,010 --> 00:31:43,610
started walking well

708
00:31:46,630 --> 00:31:45,020
I don't know where he walked I don't

709
00:31:49,990 --> 00:31:46,640
know how long he walked but during this

710
00:31:52,390 --> 00:31:50,000
walk he got sunstroke supposedly he told

711
00:31:54,130 --> 00:31:52,400
me this too he claimed that he was in

712
00:31:57,610 --> 00:31:54,140
the hospital for two weeks with

713
00:31:59,440 --> 00:31:57,620
sunstroke well he may have been in for

714
00:32:01,900 --> 00:31:59,450
two weeks for sunstroke but it wasn't

715
00:32:03,130 --> 00:32:01,910
too many years after that that he was

716
00:32:06,370 --> 00:32:03,140
put in yep Salani

717
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:06,380
because he was hearing voices so it

718
00:32:12,490 --> 00:32:09,410
could have been a vortex of all these

719
00:32:14,919 --> 00:32:12,500
things going on in his life his mother

720
00:32:16,930 --> 00:32:14,929
said that his breakdown was a long time

721
00:32:19,510 --> 00:32:16,940
coming but I don't know what she meant

722
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:19,520
by that so that's when the voices

723
00:32:25,690 --> 00:32:22,850
started and his wife Sophie is the one

724
00:32:30,430 --> 00:32:25,700
that committed him how did this make him

725
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:30,440
criminally insane um well he was in Y

726
00:32:37,530 --> 00:32:33,410
epsilon T State Hospital which was a

727
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:37,540
lower security facility and in fact

728
00:32:44,950 --> 00:32:42,290
would allow outpatient visits to their

729
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:44,960
old home and and since Sophie was his

730
00:32:52,150 --> 00:32:48,650
guardian this was all through the courts

731
00:32:55,450 --> 00:32:52,160
she was became his guardian she could

732
00:32:57,610 --> 00:32:55,460
say okay he can come home for the

733
00:32:59,380 --> 00:32:57,620
weekend or for a week or whatever and

734
00:33:01,180 --> 00:32:59,390
I'll take responsibility for him and

735
00:33:02,350 --> 00:33:01,190
they didn't seem to have a problem with

736
00:33:07,030 --> 00:33:02,360
that it yet so Lanny

737
00:33:08,740 --> 00:33:07,040
but when Sophie died in that freak

738
00:33:12,039 --> 00:33:08,750
accident in the bathtub she was

739
00:33:16,810 --> 00:33:12,049
electrocuted remember that it was crazy

740
00:33:21,970 --> 00:33:16,820
story but that was in early 30s Oh

741
00:33:25,299 --> 00:33:21,980
December 37 she died he has no guardian

742
00:33:28,419 --> 00:33:25,309
at that point and at that time so if he

743
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:28,429
had allowed him to go back to Barco to

744
00:33:33,310 --> 00:33:30,650
stay with his parents because everybody

745
00:33:36,419 --> 00:33:33,320
agreed he'd be better off staying there

746
00:33:41,830 --> 00:33:36,429
with his parents you know for recovery

747
00:33:46,210 --> 00:33:41,840
so here he is and in Bartow his wife is

748
00:33:49,510 --> 00:33:46,220
electrocuted no he has no guardian and I

749
00:33:53,169 --> 00:33:49,520
haven't told you the other part that his

750
00:33:55,060 --> 00:33:53,179
wife family hated him okay that was that

751
00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:55,070
was what it boiled down to and they did

752
00:34:01,389 --> 00:33:56,570
not want him

753
00:34:05,409 --> 00:34:01,399
associating with his own daughter so at

754
00:34:07,749 --> 00:34:05,419
that point Sophie's family decides

755
00:34:10,710 --> 00:34:07,759
they're going to appoint their lawyer as

756
00:34:19,419 --> 00:34:10,720
his guardian his name was Louis Tendler

757
00:34:22,180 --> 00:34:19,429
so in January of 30 think of well I got

758
00:34:24,089 --> 00:34:22,190
it mixed up between 37 and 38 but it's

759
00:34:27,669 --> 00:34:24,099
right in there

760
00:34:31,030 --> 00:34:27,679
he gets appointed as shaver's guardian

761
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:31,040
well when shaver finds this out he books

762
00:34:36,579 --> 00:34:34,490
he takes off without telling his parents

763
00:34:39,250 --> 00:34:36,589
where he's going or anybody where he's

764
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:39,260
going because I think I mean he didn't

765
00:34:43,990 --> 00:34:42,770
say it but I suspect he was afraid they

766
00:34:46,270 --> 00:34:44,000
were going to put him back in yep

767
00:34:49,659 --> 00:34:46,280
cilenti because he didn't have Sophie

768
00:34:52,180 --> 00:34:49,669
who was more sympathetic to his case so

769
00:34:56,550 --> 00:34:52,190
he went on the lam for a year so that's

770
00:34:59,349 --> 00:34:56,560
an escape he a lot of people say well

771
00:35:02,079 --> 00:34:59,359
there's no discharge paper from you

772
00:35:05,559 --> 00:35:02,089
Salani so how could he be in Ionia which

773
00:35:07,809 --> 00:35:05,569
is a really high security facility well

774
00:35:10,809 --> 00:35:07,819
there was no discharge because he

775
00:35:13,059 --> 00:35:10,819
escaped from util auntie and that's why

776
00:35:16,630 --> 00:35:13,069
they finally decided when they caught

777
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:16,640
him a year later that they were gonna

778
00:35:23,589 --> 00:35:20,450
lock him up and throw away the key okay

779
00:35:26,170 --> 00:35:23,599
let's now look at this confluence of

780
00:35:28,660 --> 00:35:26,180
events here what was shame for doing

781
00:35:32,470 --> 00:35:28,670
when he first hooked up with Ray Palmer

782
00:35:34,809 --> 00:35:32,480
and how did he do it and before we go on

783
00:35:37,660 --> 00:35:34,819
we have about 50 seconds to start this

784
00:35:40,540 --> 00:35:37,670
answers to go ahead Richard okay well

785
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:40,550
while he was in Ionia there was no way

786
00:35:45,609 --> 00:35:42,770
for him to get out like he used to go on

787
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:45,619
visit and nobody came to visit him

788
00:35:52,300 --> 00:35:48,770
except once in 1938 it was Sophie's

789
00:35:55,270 --> 00:35:52,310
sister Rose came to visit and he was

790
00:35:58,240 --> 00:35:55,280
pretty much hung out to dry so he had

791
00:36:00,160 --> 00:35:58,250
plenty of time to ruminate and think and

792
00:36:03,730 --> 00:36:00,170
he did a lot of writing and he did a lot

793
00:36:05,500 --> 00:36:03,740
of research in scientific matters and

794
00:36:08,750 --> 00:36:05,510
that's when he started writing his

795
00:36:13,310 --> 00:36:08,760
science down you know D&T

796
00:36:15,770 --> 00:36:13,320
dicks and electric hems and the Mac and

797
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:15,780
all this stuff he he was I don't know

798
00:36:19,550 --> 00:36:17,850
what was going on with him but he could

799
00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:19,560
have been having visions but he was also

800
00:36:24,470 --> 00:36:22,050
having shock treatments there too

801
00:36:27,290 --> 00:36:24,480
we'll get into more of Richard shaver

802
00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:27,300
and Ray Palmer and what went on in

803
00:36:31,850 --> 00:36:29,970
science fiction and where it led and in

804
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:31,860
fact it led to the beginnings of the UFO

805
00:36:36,050 --> 00:36:34,410
field the book is war over Lemuria with

806
00:36:38,330 --> 00:36:36,060
Richard Toronto we also have Geneva

807
00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:38,340
Hagan with Jean and Chris you're in the

808
00:36:49,090 --> 00:36:40,370
para cast

809
00:36:51,310 --> 00:36:49,100
[Music]

810
00:36:54,770 --> 00:36:51,320
America's number one source for

811
00:37:02,030 --> 00:36:54,780
independent authoring for over a decade

812
00:37:04,580 --> 00:37:02,040
we are the gcn radio network is there a

813
00:37:06,980 --> 00:37:04,590
secret viewable agenda to strange

814
00:37:09,470 --> 00:37:06,990
creatures from the ductus corners of the

815
00:37:13,010 --> 00:37:09,480
mind roam the earth is there evidence

816
00:37:15,830 --> 00:37:13,020
for mind control time travel or devious

817
00:37:18,100 --> 00:37:15,840
government conspiracies find out the

818
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850
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890
00:40:16,510 --> 00:40:14,540
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913
00:41:06,430 --> 00:41:03,260
get healthy hi this is Don Ecker and you

914
00:41:08,710 --> 00:41:06,440
are tuned into the para cast let me tell

915
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:08,720
you what you're gonna hear stuff here

916
00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:11,570
that you probably won't hear anywhere

917
00:41:17,589 --> 00:41:15,650
else here that George Noory now ladies

918
00:41:19,329 --> 00:41:17,599
and gentlemen after we go through this

919
00:41:21,370 --> 00:41:19,339
history and very quickly what happened

920
00:41:22,930 --> 00:41:21,380
with the shaver mystery we're gonna

921
00:41:25,030 --> 00:41:22,940
mention the fact that I did meet Ray

922
00:41:26,589 --> 00:41:25,040
Palmer as I mentioned before I'll tell

923
00:41:29,099 --> 00:41:26,599
you about that visit and Geneva will

924
00:41:31,690 --> 00:41:29,109
tell you about the visit we both made to

925
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:31,700
Richard shaver in the 70s when he was

926
00:41:36,940 --> 00:41:34,010
talking about something called rock

927
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:36,950
books okay Richard Toronto's author of

928
00:41:41,950 --> 00:41:39,770
war over Lemuria talking about the fact

929
00:41:44,050 --> 00:41:41,960
that shaver was put into mental

930
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:44,060
institutions probably railroaded there

931
00:41:49,750 --> 00:41:47,450
but some point he created this new

932
00:41:52,180 --> 00:41:49,760
alphabet the man tongue alphabet which

933
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:52,190
is what he sent to Palmer right that's

934
00:41:56,020 --> 00:41:53,930
right that was one of the things he

935
00:41:59,589 --> 00:41:56,030
worked on that he discovered while he

936
00:42:02,079 --> 00:41:59,599
was in Ionia and that's what seemed to

937
00:42:05,020 --> 00:42:02,089
click with Ray Palmer and another

938
00:42:07,450 --> 00:42:05,030
incident there's so many these little

939
00:42:11,290 --> 00:42:07,460
incidents you know these little miracle

940
00:42:13,510 --> 00:42:11,300
incidents in in their lives and as I

941
00:42:15,579 --> 00:42:13,520
pointed out in the book if it weren't

942
00:42:17,470 --> 00:42:15,589
for Howard Brown I don't think the

943
00:42:19,570 --> 00:42:17,480
shaver mystery ever would have happened

944
00:42:20,240 --> 00:42:19,580
tell us this story this is fascinating

945
00:42:23,930 --> 00:42:20,250
here

946
00:42:26,390 --> 00:42:23,940
he was an assistant editor and amazing

947
00:42:29,240 --> 00:42:26,400
stories that's right yes this letter

948
00:42:32,240 --> 00:42:29,250
what happened next well the back story

949
00:42:34,490 --> 00:42:32,250
has the thing that Howard brown and Ray

950
00:42:38,240 --> 00:42:34,500
Palmer always kind of had this feud

951
00:42:42,380 --> 00:42:38,250
going howard disapproved of Ray Palmer

952
00:42:46,100 --> 00:42:42,390
Howard was a very good writer he wrote a

953
00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:46,110
series of detective Yark novels and he

954
00:42:52,340 --> 00:42:48,690
was editor of mammoth mysteries and

955
00:42:55,550 --> 00:42:52,350
mammoth detective for Ziff Davis but he

956
00:42:59,840 --> 00:42:55,560
had to do what Ray Palmer told him to do

957
00:43:03,380 --> 00:42:59,850
because he worked as his assistant also

958
00:43:07,550 --> 00:43:03,390
and Ray Palmer never let him forget that

959
00:43:10,460 --> 00:43:07,560
so here you know Howard always got stuck

960
00:43:12,740 --> 00:43:10,470
with mail duty so he was reading this

961
00:43:15,050 --> 00:43:12,750
letter from shaver and he just couldn't

962
00:43:18,410 --> 00:43:15,060
believe his eyes and so he made fun of

963
00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:18,420
the letter and Ray Palmer was there and

964
00:43:23,780 --> 00:43:21,570
he was listening to all this and like I

965
00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:23,790
said if Howard had just thrown the

966
00:43:30,050 --> 00:43:28,170
letter away and kept his mouth shut and

967
00:43:30,710 --> 00:43:30,060
kept his mouth shut that would have been

968
00:43:32,870 --> 00:43:30,720
the end of it

969
00:43:38,180 --> 00:43:32,880
Ray Palmer never would have met Richard

970
00:43:40,910 --> 00:43:38,190
shaver but it's irony that Howard Brown

971
00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:40,920
one of the biggest critics of Ray Palmer

972
00:43:46,130 --> 00:43:43,650
and the shape of mystery actually helped

973
00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:46,140
create the whole situation and I don't

974
00:43:51,380 --> 00:43:48,930
think that irony was lost on him that's

975
00:43:53,420 --> 00:43:51,390
how it all started with I love your

976
00:43:56,210 --> 00:43:53,430
description in the book where where the

977
00:43:58,640 --> 00:43:56,220
he throws the letter away and it's

978
00:44:00,980 --> 00:43:58,650
fished out of the the wastebasket it's

979
00:44:04,310 --> 00:44:00,990
smoothed out and then he's told to print

980
00:44:06,410 --> 00:44:04,320
it in its entirety I love that that

981
00:44:09,170 --> 00:44:06,420
little it's just a fascinating little

982
00:44:11,150 --> 00:44:09,180
bit there by the way before you finish

983
00:44:13,460 --> 00:44:11,160
your answer your question there Chris

984
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:13,470
whether Palmer partly did that despite

985
00:44:20,060 --> 00:44:17,450
brown Chris Ray Palmer it seems to me

986
00:44:22,850 --> 00:44:20,070
never having met the man but it seems

987
00:44:24,650 --> 00:44:22,860
like a lot of things he did always left

988
00:44:26,390 --> 00:44:24,660
room for interpretation you didn't know

989
00:44:29,790 --> 00:44:26,400
if he was serious whether that twinkle

990
00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:29,800
in the eye was was some sort of

991
00:44:34,620 --> 00:44:32,650
vindictive agenda or you know you get

992
00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:34,630
this real sense of palma it was a real

993
00:44:39,930 --> 00:44:37,570
trickster in in many ways and I love the

994
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:39,940
us section also Richard in the book work

995
00:44:46,079 --> 00:44:43,450
where they they printed a request for

996
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:46,089
you know ancient language experts or

997
00:44:49,890 --> 00:44:48,010
link linguists to to look at this

998
00:44:52,349 --> 00:44:49,900
alphabet and they got a hundred replies

999
00:44:54,150 --> 00:44:52,359
and then when the story came out of

1000
00:44:57,450 --> 00:44:54,160
where the alphabet came from nobody

1001
00:44:59,220 --> 00:44:57,460
would touch it that's right yeah and

1002
00:45:01,470 --> 00:44:59,230
that's the way it went with shaver you

1003
00:45:03,990 --> 00:45:01,480
know he would propose he was always

1004
00:45:06,720 --> 00:45:04,000
great at proposing all these ideas but

1005
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:06,730
then as soon as people heard you know

1006
00:45:10,740 --> 00:45:07,810
where he was getting his information

1007
00:45:13,370 --> 00:45:10,750
they just didn't want anything to do

1008
00:45:15,630 --> 00:45:13,380
with it now that's the big thing here to

1009
00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:15,640
the stories originally came out of

1010
00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:16,330
science fiction

1011
00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:20,170
right right heavily rewritten edited by

1012
00:45:25,339 --> 00:45:22,690
Palmer but shameless truth was that

1013
00:45:28,650 --> 00:45:25,349
there were caves down there tell us more

1014
00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:28,660
well Palmer you know didn't want to say

1015
00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:31,930
that at first and that was one of the

1016
00:45:42,839 --> 00:45:39,970
first of many gap to favor he Ray Palmer

1017
00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:42,849
called it racial memory he didn't think

1018
00:45:49,230 --> 00:45:46,930
that the fact that shaver had visited

1019
00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:49,240
caverns and found all this out as fact

1020
00:45:55,050 --> 00:45:52,330
with woodwork so he said the whole story

1021
00:45:58,890 --> 00:45:55,060
of I remember Lemuria was she ever got

1022
00:46:03,030 --> 00:45:58,900
from racial memory but after that issue

1023
00:46:05,570 --> 00:46:03,040
and so many people wrote in then Palmer

1024
00:46:10,530 --> 00:46:05,580
felt a little more emboldened and

1025
00:46:13,050 --> 00:46:10,540
decided yeah okay we'll go with with

1026
00:46:15,510 --> 00:46:13,060
what savers telling me that this is you

1027
00:46:18,180 --> 00:46:15,520
know fact this is he was there he was in

1028
00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:18,190
the caverns and and as time went on

1029
00:46:26,910 --> 00:46:23,410
Armour even started to claim that he

1030
00:46:29,579 --> 00:46:26,920
knew certain things about Lemuria and

1031
00:46:32,250 --> 00:46:29,589
move that he was sort of a reincarnated

1032
00:46:34,670 --> 00:46:32,260
person from you know the elder time

1033
00:46:37,710 --> 00:46:34,680
itself and that we should all all of us

1034
00:46:39,900 --> 00:46:37,720
reincarnated Lemurians should gather

1035
00:46:42,330 --> 00:46:39,910
around and support each other and

1036
00:46:45,090 --> 00:46:42,340
everything I have a question

1037
00:46:47,220 --> 00:46:45,100
as to how many subscribers they would

1038
00:46:50,820 --> 00:46:47,230
have had at that time and of those how

1039
00:46:53,970 --> 00:46:50,830
many people wrote in well-armored always

1040
00:46:57,750 --> 00:46:53,980
said that the shaver mystery increased

1041
00:47:00,530 --> 00:46:57,760
their circulation by 50,000 and I think

1042
00:47:06,510 --> 00:47:00,540
they were hovering before that around

1043
00:47:09,750 --> 00:47:06,520
125,000 or 130,000 so and that's what

1044
00:47:13,500 --> 00:47:09,760
William handling told me too he said

1045
00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:13,510
about 50,000 extra people were brought

1046
00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:16,810
in by the shaver mystery and how many of

1047
00:47:24,060 --> 00:47:18,970
those people wrote to say that it was

1048
00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:24,070
actually true that is up for grabs

1049
00:47:29,490 --> 00:47:26,170
nobody knows for sure

1050
00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:29,500
Palmer once described of the letters is

1051
00:47:36,060 --> 00:47:32,530
like stack standing four feet high in

1052
00:47:38,700 --> 00:47:36,070
front of his publisher or whatever there

1053
00:47:41,130 --> 00:47:38,710
was always talk of means thousands of

1054
00:47:44,010 --> 00:47:41,140
letters but shaver he even said that he

1055
00:47:46,470 --> 00:47:44,020
never really got to see the letters I

1056
00:47:50,720 --> 00:47:46,480
don't know who else obvious letters

1057
00:47:53,550 --> 00:47:50,730
other than Ray Palmer and maybe you know

1058
00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:53,560
yeah the indication was that there were

1059
00:47:59,340 --> 00:47:55,450
a lot of people out there in the

1060
00:48:02,660 --> 00:47:59,350
readership that we're hearing voices it

1061
00:48:05,880 --> 00:48:02,670
still happened so it was going on then -

1062
00:48:08,610 --> 00:48:05,890
exactly and and what I found interesting

1063
00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:08,620
is how far we've gone because now

1064
00:48:12,900 --> 00:48:10,810
there's the hearing voices Network a

1065
00:48:17,340 --> 00:48:12,910
support group for people who hear voices

1066
00:48:19,890 --> 00:48:17,350
and as I point out in the book more than

1067
00:48:24,030 --> 00:48:19,900
just the shaver mystery being some

1068
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:24,040
interesting science fiction series it

1069
00:48:31,350 --> 00:48:28,570
was a venue a place for people who did

1070
00:48:33,300 --> 00:48:31,360
hear voices to go for support day you

1071
00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:33,310
know it was like wow here's somebody

1072
00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:35,410
else that the tearing voices and their

1073
00:48:41,420 --> 00:48:38,490
kind of thing what you know I hear and

1074
00:48:43,860 --> 00:48:41,430
he was ahead of his time really in

1075
00:48:46,710 --> 00:48:43,870
Psychological terms if you look at it in

1076
00:48:49,830 --> 00:48:46,720
Psychological terms Amazing Stories was

1077
00:48:51,690 --> 00:48:49,840
becoming sort of this psychological

1078
00:48:55,320 --> 00:48:51,700
support group for people who were

1079
00:48:56,130 --> 00:48:55,330
hearing voices and when this kicked the

1080
00:48:59,360 --> 00:48:56,140
shaver mystery

1081
00:49:01,830 --> 00:48:59,370
out it took another 40 years before

1082
00:49:04,260 --> 00:49:01,840
actual professors and people with

1083
00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:04,270
degrees started looking at this and

1084
00:49:08,340 --> 00:49:06,010
saying yeah you know you don't have to

1085
00:49:10,980 --> 00:49:08,350
be a totally gets a pretty crazy person

1086
00:49:12,660 --> 00:49:10,990
to live a normal life but you hearing

1087
00:49:13,350 --> 00:49:12,670
voices you just have to come to terms

1088
00:49:17,970 --> 00:49:13,360
with it

1089
00:49:20,190 --> 00:49:17,980
that's a quick question here now were

1090
00:49:24,390 --> 00:49:20,200
these stories in the writings for these

1091
00:49:27,480 --> 00:49:24,400
people were they consistent with what

1092
00:49:30,030 --> 00:49:27,490
shaver claimed Palmer said that they

1093
00:49:34,010 --> 00:49:30,040
were in shaver said they were too shaver

1094
00:49:39,120 --> 00:49:34,020
always said that it was too coincidental

1095
00:49:41,790 --> 00:49:39,130
for everyone saying something very

1096
00:49:45,510 --> 00:49:41,800
similar you know he pointed out in this

1097
00:49:47,670 --> 00:49:45,520
early fake piece he wrote at his ta tour

1098
00:49:51,510 --> 00:49:47,680
when called 20 million maniacs remember

1099
00:49:53,700 --> 00:49:51,520
that it was all about people who heard

1100
00:49:57,810 --> 00:49:53,710
voices now this is I think in the very

1101
00:50:01,290 --> 00:49:57,820
first issue of bait so I think the th

1102
00:50:05,340 --> 00:50:01,300
Irwin th Irwin was a pen name house name

1103
00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:05,350
that rap used rap by the way is Raymond

1104
00:50:10,290 --> 00:50:07,930
a Palmer he signed on as articles with

1105
00:50:14,580 --> 00:50:10,300
the three letters all right everybody

1106
00:50:18,510 --> 00:50:14,590
called him rap anyway three people use

1107
00:50:22,860 --> 00:50:18,520
that house name one was Leroy York's the

1108
00:50:28,080 --> 00:50:22,870
man who introduced Ray Palmer to his

1109
00:50:31,260 --> 00:50:28,090
future wife Marjorie and the other man

1110
00:50:33,510 --> 00:50:31,270
was Richard shaver and the third man was

1111
00:50:37,020 --> 00:50:33,520
Ray Palmer so three people used that

1112
00:50:39,870 --> 00:50:37,030
name well in 1948 by that time only two

1113
00:50:42,810 --> 00:50:39,880
were left living rain Palmer in Richard

1114
00:50:47,130 --> 00:50:42,820
shaver so I think that the article was

1115
00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:47,140
written by both but in that article gh

1116
00:50:57,210 --> 00:50:52,210
Arwen points out that people who hear

1117
00:50:58,860 --> 00:50:57,220
voices often will relate really similar

1118
00:51:01,500 --> 00:50:58,870
things that they're saying and he

1119
00:51:03,840 --> 00:51:01,510
postulated that why are they saying all

1120
00:51:06,150 --> 00:51:03,850
the same thing you know shouldn't they

1121
00:51:08,730 --> 00:51:06,160
be coming up with all different things

1122
00:51:09,840 --> 00:51:08,740
that the voices would be telling him but

1123
00:51:12,180 --> 00:51:09,850
the voices or

1124
00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:12,190
being very consistent so he used that as

1125
00:51:18,240 --> 00:51:15,010
part of his argument that there was a

1126
00:51:20,970 --> 00:51:18,250
single source for the voice I will

1127
00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:20,980
discuss what that source was supposedly

1128
00:51:26,790 --> 00:51:24,490
in our next segment but we now have to

1129
00:51:29,220 --> 00:51:26,800
do our break richard toronto joining us

1130
00:51:31,830 --> 00:51:29,230
the book is were over Lemuria we're

1131
00:51:39,540 --> 00:51:31,840
joined by Geneva Hagen with Jean and

1132
00:51:42,230 --> 00:51:39,550
Chris you're in the para cast are you

1133
00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:42,240
tired of searching for great talk radio

1134
00:51:50,220 --> 00:51:45,490
more important search for overrule we

1135
00:51:52,110 --> 00:51:50,230
are the GCM radio network hi this is Ted

1136
00:51:54,180 --> 00:51:52,120
Anderson if you'd like to listen to GCN

1137
00:51:56,520 --> 00:51:54,190
programs on the goal I have great news

1138
00:51:58,740 --> 00:51:56,530
gzn has created a droid and iPhone

1139
00:52:01,050 --> 00:51:58,750
application and it's free just as easy

1140
00:52:02,970 --> 00:52:01,060
as going to GC and live.com click on the

1141
00:52:04,380 --> 00:52:02,980
banner and download before you know it

1142
00:52:06,540 --> 00:52:04,390
you'll be listening to your favorite

1143
00:52:09,330 --> 00:52:06,550
hard-hitting GCN shows live or on demand

1144
00:52:10,170 --> 00:52:09,340
right on your droid or iPhone 24/7 and

1145
00:52:12,210 --> 00:52:10,180
on the go

1146
00:52:13,890 --> 00:52:12,220
so download the droid an iPhone app free

1147
00:52:15,780 --> 00:52:13,900
by clicking on the banner at GC and

1148
00:52:18,030 --> 00:52:15,790
live.com thanks again for listening to

1149
00:52:20,490 --> 00:52:18,040
GC and live.com again that's juicy and

1150
00:52:21,780 --> 00:52:20,500
live.com hi this is ted Anderson have

1151
00:52:23,550 --> 00:52:21,790
you ever wondered why banks stock

1152
00:52:25,230 --> 00:52:23,560
workers investment advisors won't talk

1153
00:52:27,930 --> 00:52:25,240
about gold IRAs they've been available

1154
00:52:29,790 --> 00:52:27,940
since 1986 yet the financial industry

1155
00:52:30,540 --> 00:52:29,800
won't recognize the value of gold for

1156
00:52:32,460 --> 00:52:30,550
your retirement

1157
00:52:34,620 --> 00:52:32,470
coal has outperformed paper investments

1158
00:52:47,450 --> 00:52:34,630
yet no word about IRAs if you would like

1159
00:52:47,460 --> 00:53:16,140
806-853-9949

1160
00:53:24,360 --> 00:53:20,990
the 100% wineries in both my legs in my

1161
00:53:27,450 --> 00:53:24,370
decision waiting for surgery to stay no

1162
00:53:30,570 --> 00:53:27,460
and try heart and body extract and death

1163
00:53:33,270 --> 00:53:30,580
has been thankfully the right decision

1164
00:53:35,970 --> 00:53:33,280
and the results I can now walk up yet

1165
00:53:37,980 --> 00:53:35,980
without knowing the pain order heart and

1166
00:53:41,130 --> 00:53:37,990
body extract at eight sixty six two nine

1167
00:53:45,120 --> 00:53:41,140
five five three zero five eight six six

1168
00:53:48,300 --> 00:53:45,130
two nine five five three zero five or HB

1169
00:53:56,859 --> 00:53:48,310
extract calm heart and body extract for

1170
00:54:04,650 --> 00:54:00,339
welcome back to the para cast the gold

1171
00:54:12,880 --> 00:54:04,660
standard of paranormal radio and now

1172
00:54:15,579 --> 00:54:12,890
here's Jane Steinberg so now we're

1173
00:54:17,950 --> 00:54:15,589
focusing on the core claims of Richard

1174
00:54:19,989 --> 00:54:17,960
shaver what the voices are telling him

1175
00:54:21,910 --> 00:54:19,999
what he may have even experienced the

1176
00:54:23,559 --> 00:54:21,920
Booker's were over Lemuria by Richard

1177
00:54:25,900 --> 00:54:23,569
Toronto we're joined by Geneva Hagen

1178
00:54:27,640 --> 00:54:25,910
this week I'm Jean Steinberg with Chris

1179
00:54:29,529 --> 00:54:27,650
O'Brien our favorite trickster okay

1180
00:54:32,230 --> 00:54:29,539
Richard let's have the answer now maybe

1181
00:54:35,460 --> 00:54:32,240
in a quick Reader's Digest version what

1182
00:54:38,710 --> 00:54:35,470
is the core basis of what shaver claims

1183
00:54:41,950 --> 00:54:38,720
he claimed that there's a race of beings

1184
00:54:45,099 --> 00:54:41,960
living under the planet in caverns that

1185
00:54:47,739 --> 00:54:45,109
were put there by a much older race a

1186
00:54:52,019 --> 00:54:47,749
very advanced race that had to lead the

1187
00:54:55,329 --> 00:54:52,029
planet thanks to our Sun spewing out

1188
00:54:58,089 --> 00:54:55,339
detrimental radiation they couldn't take

1189
00:55:02,410 --> 00:54:58,099
it these elder people who came from

1190
00:55:05,710 --> 00:55:02,420
space they are living on earth at a time

1191
00:55:07,569 --> 00:55:05,720
when it was a benevolent place but for a

1192
00:55:09,970 --> 00:55:07,579
time they decided well we're not going

1193
00:55:11,470 --> 00:55:09,980
to leave yet we're gonna go underground

1194
00:55:15,370 --> 00:55:11,480
so they went underground they had

1195
00:55:18,160 --> 00:55:15,380
advanced technology they before they

1196
00:55:20,829 --> 00:55:18,170
migrated back into space they left a lot

1197
00:55:23,109 --> 00:55:20,839
of this machinery these MEK as they

1198
00:55:26,019 --> 00:55:23,119
called it but there were stragglers and

1199
00:55:28,660 --> 00:55:26,029
the stragglers are the people the

1200
00:55:32,319 --> 00:55:28,670
mutants that are down there today called

1201
00:55:34,059 --> 00:55:32,329
the Darrow and the good people are the

1202
00:55:36,729 --> 00:55:34,069
Terra these are the people that helped

1203
00:55:39,759 --> 00:55:36,739
save her so there are these two forces

1204
00:55:43,509 --> 00:55:39,769
at work that we're constantly using

1205
00:55:46,599 --> 00:55:43,519
these Ray's you know I should point out

1206
00:55:50,819 --> 00:55:46,609
that this is following the exact

1207
00:55:53,200 --> 00:55:50,829
scenario of the influencing machine of

1208
00:55:55,450 --> 00:55:53,210
Psychiatry of the schizophrenic

1209
00:55:57,609 --> 00:55:55,460
personality this came out around the

1210
00:55:59,559 --> 00:55:57,619
turn of the last century there's been a

1211
00:56:02,650 --> 00:55:59,569
lot of cases of people who feel that

1212
00:56:04,479 --> 00:56:02,660
they're being raised by some source

1213
00:56:08,170 --> 00:56:04,489
somewhere and a lot of times it's

1214
00:56:10,260 --> 00:56:08,180
underground can be elsewhere but shaver

1215
00:56:13,320 --> 00:56:10,270
was displaying all of the some

1216
00:56:16,710 --> 00:56:13,330
the schizophrenic that was feeling he

1217
00:56:19,680 --> 00:56:16,720
was controlled by some outside source so

1218
00:56:22,440 --> 00:56:19,690
that was the core of his teaching was

1219
00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:22,450
that these evil beings were causing

1220
00:56:28,380 --> 00:56:25,890
humanity all kinds of problems and he

1221
00:56:31,950 --> 00:56:28,390
acquired a lot of information from

1222
00:56:35,100 --> 00:56:31,960
ancient scrolls these thought records

1223
00:56:38,160 --> 00:56:35,110
that he accessed while he was down there

1224
00:56:40,800 --> 00:56:38,170
this could have been the time that he

1225
00:56:42,990 --> 00:56:40,810
was in Ionia I'm not sure if it was

1226
00:56:45,600 --> 00:56:43,000
exactly that time or if it began while

1227
00:56:48,120 --> 00:56:45,610
he was in yips Delonte but it happened

1228
00:56:50,400 --> 00:56:48,130
during time when he was in one of those

1229
00:56:53,190 --> 00:56:50,410
places so in the sense here he was in a

1230
00:56:54,750 --> 00:56:53,200
trance or dreaming one feels when he

1231
00:56:57,390 --> 00:56:54,760
felt he went to the caves and had these

1232
00:57:00,000 --> 00:56:57,400
encounters yeah I got accounts from

1233
00:57:03,000 --> 00:57:00,010
people who actually had seen favor in

1234
00:57:05,370 --> 00:57:03,010
trance he would slip into these

1235
00:57:07,020 --> 00:57:05,380
trance-like states and that's when they

1236
00:57:07,530 --> 00:57:07,030
would hear the voice is coming from

1237
00:57:10,380 --> 00:57:07,540
James

1238
00:57:11,850 --> 00:57:10,390
now one thing Palmer told me that

1239
00:57:13,470 --> 00:57:11,860
freaked him out I don't know whether you

1240
00:57:16,260 --> 00:57:13,480
mentioned much of it in the book and

1241
00:57:18,720 --> 00:57:16,270
that is he went to shaver's home in

1242
00:57:22,440 --> 00:57:18,730
Bartow Pennsylvania one time heard the

1243
00:57:24,240 --> 00:57:22,450
voices but he said it couldn't have been

1244
00:57:26,790 --> 00:57:24,250
from shaver because sometimes the voices

1245
00:57:30,300 --> 00:57:26,800
would speak at the same time they'd

1246
00:57:33,270 --> 00:57:30,310
overlap each other mm-hmm well what he

1247
00:57:35,850 --> 00:57:33,280
would write in his editorials in an

1248
00:57:39,960 --> 00:57:35,860
amazing and then there was what he would

1249
00:57:42,690 --> 00:57:39,970
write in letters to shave her now there

1250
00:57:45,900 --> 00:57:42,700
were a lot of letters that he published

1251
00:57:48,510 --> 00:57:45,910
in the hidden world just schedules CAD

1252
00:57:51,360 --> 00:57:48,520
pages and pages of these letters from

1253
00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:51,370
shaver and then some from Elmer to

1254
00:57:56,730 --> 00:57:54,010
shaver and in one of those letters

1255
00:57:58,830 --> 00:57:56,740
Palmer does say you know you're telling

1256
00:58:01,980 --> 00:57:58,840
me that you know it's a woman at a

1257
00:58:04,050 --> 00:58:01,990
control panel down in a cavern but you

1258
00:58:05,730 --> 00:58:04,060
know how do I know that you know I mean

1259
00:58:08,520 --> 00:58:05,740
you're telling me this how do I know

1260
00:58:11,580 --> 00:58:08,530
it's not some occult thing like on the

1261
00:58:14,640 --> 00:58:11,590
astral plane or and that's what got

1262
00:58:17,370 --> 00:58:14,650
Palmer interested more in the occult and

1263
00:58:20,130 --> 00:58:17,380
metaphysics was this whole aspect of

1264
00:58:21,570 --> 00:58:20,140
where these voices were coming from and

1265
00:58:23,770 --> 00:58:21,580
he didn't seem to think that they were

1266
00:58:27,250 --> 00:58:23,780
coming from taverns

1267
00:58:31,450 --> 00:58:27,260
our feet he kind of combined it with the

1268
00:58:33,340 --> 00:58:31,460
Alaska Bible and put the voices and the

1269
00:58:35,980 --> 00:58:33,350
influences is coming from someplace

1270
00:58:38,230 --> 00:58:35,990
about a hundred miles stuff in our habit

1271
00:58:39,520 --> 00:58:38,240
now we should mention also that shaver

1272
00:58:41,890 --> 00:58:39,530
always maintained there were physical

1273
00:58:44,290 --> 00:58:41,900
experiences but now let's get to the

1274
00:58:46,750 --> 00:58:44,300
next segment of this which is that what

1275
00:58:48,940 --> 00:58:46,760
happened in amazing stories and the

1276
00:58:50,140 --> 00:58:48,950
reader reaction because first of all one

1277
00:58:52,390 --> 00:58:50,150
of the things that Palmer did when he

1278
00:58:54,490 --> 00:58:52,400
became editor of amazing stories he made

1279
00:58:56,920 --> 00:58:54,500
it a mass-market science fiction

1280
00:58:59,560 --> 00:58:56,930
magazine it wasn't just cerebral stuff

1281
00:59:01,690 --> 00:58:59,570
where we take some kind of new invention

1282
00:59:03,940 --> 00:59:01,700
and we do a story around it this had

1283
00:59:06,700 --> 00:59:03,950
characters an action paving the way for

1284
00:59:08,980 --> 00:59:06,710
things like I said before Forbidden

1285
00:59:11,560 --> 00:59:08,990
Planet and Star Wars and Star Trek and

1286
00:59:16,300 --> 00:59:11,570
stuff like that right that's right in

1287
00:59:19,510 --> 00:59:16,310
fact I would say that movies even before

1288
00:59:22,000 --> 00:59:19,520
Star Wars science fiction films adhere

1289
00:59:25,810 --> 00:59:22,010
more to the Palmer type of science

1290
00:59:28,570 --> 00:59:25,820
fiction rather than the John W camel jr.

1291
00:59:31,990 --> 00:59:28,580
science fiction even before the shaver

1292
00:59:35,650 --> 00:59:32,000
mystery and and was already split into

1293
00:59:38,020 --> 00:59:35,660
two camp you had John Campbell Jr who

1294
00:59:40,060 --> 00:59:38,030
was more than cerebral kind of science

1295
00:59:44,500 --> 00:59:40,070
fiction you know for the intellectual

1296
00:59:47,380 --> 00:59:44,510
and and the fans followed that guy they

1297
00:59:50,290 --> 00:59:47,390
felt that science fiction deserved a

1298
00:59:52,650 --> 00:59:50,300
place in mainstream literature which it

1299
00:59:55,600 --> 00:59:52,660
didn't have it was it was like Time

1300
01:00:00,820 --> 00:59:55,610
magazine type literature it was pulp

1301
01:00:03,730 --> 01:00:00,830
literature okay so Almer and working out

1302
01:00:05,770 --> 01:00:03,740
his type of science fiction in the 1930s

1303
01:00:07,690 --> 01:00:05,780
when he worked at fantasy magazine he

1304
01:00:10,870 --> 01:00:07,700
was heavily influenced by a guy named

1305
01:00:13,600 --> 01:00:10,880
wine Bob Stanley G Weinbaum who

1306
01:00:16,030 --> 01:00:13,610
humanized science fiction he got away

1307
01:00:18,460 --> 01:00:16,040
from the old you know that's involved

1308
01:00:21,940 --> 01:00:18,470
clunking robot kind of thing and gave

1309
01:00:26,380 --> 01:00:21,950
aliens personality this was before

1310
01:00:29,110 --> 01:00:26,390
George Lucas way before so Palmer was

1311
01:00:32,140 --> 01:00:29,120
totally blown away by wine bombs who

1312
01:00:34,780 --> 01:00:32,150
died very young so Palmer took on the

1313
01:00:36,730 --> 01:00:34,790
mantle stuff of wine bomb and this

1314
01:00:39,270 --> 01:00:36,740
influenced his type of science fiction

1315
01:00:42,490 --> 01:00:39,280
which was more of a visceral emotional

1316
01:00:45,250 --> 01:00:42,500
science-fiction which the fans and and I

1317
01:00:47,920 --> 01:00:45,260
gotta add here the fans and him was only

1318
01:00:50,470 --> 01:00:47,930
about a hundred fifty it you know but

1319
01:00:52,630 --> 01:00:50,480
they were like people at that time they

1320
01:00:54,960 --> 01:00:52,640
grew up to write the histories of

1321
01:00:58,120 --> 01:00:54,970
science fiction like Forrest J Ackerman

1322
01:01:02,500 --> 01:00:58,130
Moskowitz and Harry Warner jr. all these

1323
01:01:04,270 --> 01:01:02,510
were young people fans and they were the

1324
01:01:06,400 --> 01:01:04,280
ones that wrote the history is like the

1325
01:01:08,410 --> 01:01:06,410
victory is to the person who gets to

1326
01:01:12,040 --> 01:01:08,420
write the history right well that's why

1327
01:01:14,470 --> 01:01:12,050
Ray Palmer has always been so discounted

1328
01:01:16,600 --> 01:01:14,480
and reviled over the years these these

1329
01:01:18,580 --> 01:01:16,610
are the people that didn't like him at

1330
01:01:21,160 --> 01:01:18,590
that point in time they didn't like it

1331
01:01:23,710 --> 01:01:21,170
because of shaver so basically here a

1332
01:01:26,950 --> 01:01:23,720
lot of science fiction fans were up in

1333
01:01:29,500 --> 01:01:26,960
arms over amazing stories fantastic and

1334
01:01:31,800 --> 01:01:29,510
complained as if Davis because of all

1335
01:01:34,990 --> 01:01:31,810
this stuff with the shaver mystery and

1336
01:01:37,930 --> 01:01:35,000
these caves and all that oh yeah that

1337
01:01:40,300 --> 01:01:37,940
was like the cherry on top of the cake

1338
01:01:42,400 --> 01:01:40,310
once once Palmer came up with the shaver

1339
01:01:43,690 --> 01:01:42,410
ministry they dug their heels in and

1340
01:01:47,130 --> 01:01:43,700
that's when they started writing in

1341
01:01:50,620 --> 01:01:47,140
letters started complaining that's when

1342
01:01:53,440 --> 01:01:50,630
shaver got a lot of bad media attention

1343
01:01:56,140 --> 01:01:53,450
to about the shaver mystery yeah so he

1344
01:01:59,530 --> 01:01:56,150
got a lot of bad press and the fans were

1345
01:02:01,090 --> 01:01:59,540
constantly hammering him he were

1346
01:02:03,070 --> 01:02:01,100
actually even trying to hoax him they

1347
01:02:05,650 --> 01:02:03,080
would be sending in these stories to see

1348
01:02:07,510 --> 01:02:05,660
if he'd print em and then they'd uh they

1349
01:02:11,500 --> 01:02:07,520
spread the news that they were able to

1350
01:02:15,099 --> 01:02:11,510
get through and and and bamboozle the

1351
01:02:18,250 --> 01:02:15,109
Palmer and and this created some quite a

1352
01:02:21,550 --> 01:02:18,260
bit of of controversy amongst the the

1353
01:02:24,340 --> 01:02:21,560
real hardcore science fiction fans yep

1354
01:02:28,930 --> 01:02:24,350
Palmer fell for quite a few hoaxes in

1355
01:02:32,109 --> 01:02:28,940
fact them in my second book to war over

1356
01:02:36,340 --> 01:02:32,119
Lemuria which is called shaver ology pay

1357
01:02:40,930 --> 01:02:36,350
shaver mystery Home Companion I go into

1358
01:02:43,510 --> 01:02:40,940
that extensively about hoaxes and I talk

1359
01:02:46,150 --> 01:02:43,520
about the you know people always said

1360
01:02:48,190 --> 01:02:46,160
how Ray Palmer was such a hoax or that

1361
01:02:50,140 --> 01:02:48,200
he was constantly coming up with hoaxes

1362
01:02:50,670 --> 01:02:50,150
but the more you dig into it the more

1363
01:02:53,760 --> 01:02:50,680
you

1364
01:02:55,830 --> 01:02:53,770
that he was taken in by more hoaxes than

1365
01:02:57,720 --> 01:02:55,840
he ever created hoax

1366
01:03:00,660 --> 01:02:57,730
now I had talked to a science fiction

1367
01:03:03,420 --> 01:03:00,670
writer back in the 70s

1368
01:03:06,360 --> 01:03:03,430
talking about Palmer and he said Palmer

1369
01:03:08,340 --> 01:03:06,370
was the kind of person who would state

1370
01:03:10,680 --> 01:03:08,350
an argument not because he believed it

1371
01:03:13,170 --> 01:03:10,690
but to get reader reaction to keep those

1372
01:03:15,810 --> 01:03:13,180
cards and letters coming to keep active

1373
01:03:18,830 --> 01:03:15,820
letters to the editor sections but at

1374
01:03:22,890 --> 01:03:18,840
some point in time the shaver mystery

1375
01:03:26,580 --> 01:03:22,900
faded out of amazing stories but then

1376
01:03:28,500 --> 01:03:26,590
Palmer and Curtis fuller began fate

1377
01:03:30,720 --> 01:03:28,510
magazine let's talk about the beginnings

1378
01:03:33,410 --> 01:03:30,730
of fate magazine because just before

1379
01:03:36,810 --> 01:03:33,420
that we were getting the first mass

1380
01:03:39,300 --> 01:03:36,820
reports some sightings of UFOs richard

1381
01:03:42,510 --> 01:03:39,310
toronto joins us with geneva Hagan Jean

1382
01:03:51,090 --> 01:03:42,520
Steinberg and Chris O'Brien you're in

1383
01:03:52,860 --> 01:03:51,100
the para cast attack of the rocket has

1384
01:03:54,600 --> 01:03:52,870
been well received by critics and

1385
01:03:57,720 --> 01:03:54,610
readers alike it's a thrill a minute

1386
01:04:00,090 --> 01:03:57,730
story you'll never forget a former US

1387
01:04:02,190 --> 01:04:00,100
military intelligence officer is haunted

1388
01:04:04,500 --> 01:04:02,200
by intense dreams about a beautiful

1389
01:04:07,650 --> 01:04:04,510
woman pleading for his help after a

1390
01:04:09,750 --> 01:04:07,660
terrible battle in outer space but the

1391
01:04:11,610 --> 01:04:09,760
dreams turn out to be true and thrust

1392
01:04:14,700 --> 01:04:11,620
him into a telepathic love affair with a

1393
01:04:17,040 --> 01:04:14,710
woman whose faraway planet is intent on

1394
01:04:19,890 --> 01:04:17,050
destroying the earth and now the

1395
01:04:22,320 --> 01:04:19,900
gripping tale continues in the coming of

1396
01:04:24,960 --> 01:04:22,330
the protectors it's the second book of

1397
01:04:27,150 --> 01:04:24,970
the raccoons trilogy a galaxy spanning

1398
01:04:30,180 --> 01:04:27,160
adventure that pits our hapless heroes

1399
01:04:32,010 --> 01:04:30,190
against powerful fanatical enemies that

1400
01:04:34,950 --> 01:04:32,020
threaten the lives of freedom loving

1401
01:04:38,460 --> 01:04:34,960
beings everywhere attack of the rockets

1402
01:04:41,190 --> 01:04:38,470
and the coming of the protectors classic

1403
01:04:44,640 --> 01:04:41,200
science fiction at its best available

1404
01:04:50,310 --> 01:04:44,650
now for more details visit Rocko is calm

1405
01:04:52,560 --> 01:04:50,320
that's our Ock o IDs calm tie this is

1406
01:04:54,480 --> 01:04:52,570
Gary Cooper with Midas resources gold

1407
01:04:56,460 --> 01:04:54,490
and silver don't be surprised when the

1408
01:04:58,260 --> 01:04:56,470
global elite confiscates money from your

1409
01:05:00,580 --> 01:04:58,270
bank account one day they have already

1410
01:05:02,320 --> 01:05:00,590
very clearly telling you that there

1411
01:05:03,970 --> 01:05:02,330
going to do it with what just happened

1412
01:05:06,100 --> 01:05:03,980
in Cyprus serving as a blueprint for

1413
01:05:08,050 --> 01:05:06,110
future bank bailouts if you are

1414
01:05:10,150 --> 01:05:08,060
concerned about keeping your money why

1415
01:05:14,670 --> 01:05:10,160
not consider storing your wealth in gold

1416
01:05:18,490 --> 01:05:14,680
and silver call me Gary Cooper at

1417
01:05:20,320 --> 01:05:18,500
1-866-37 extension 130 together we'll

1418
01:05:22,810 --> 01:05:20,330
discuss your options of buying gold and

1419
01:05:24,430 --> 01:05:22,820
silver again the global elite have plans

1420
01:05:43,800 --> 01:05:24,440
for your money and it doesn't include

1421
01:05:56,080 --> 01:05:45,810
[Music]

1422
01:05:58,120 --> 01:05:56,090
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1423
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1424
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1425
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1426
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1427
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1428
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1429
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1430
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1433
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1435
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1437
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1438
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charge with the purchase of a per key

1439
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light the Berkey guy is also offering a

1440
01:06:35,890 --> 01:06:33,050
set of fluoride and arsenic filters for

1441
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1442
01:06:38,800 --> 01:06:36,740
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1443
01:06:41,230 --> 01:06:38,810
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1444
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1445
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1446
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1447
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1448
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Keep Calm today cause your pH today are

1449
01:06:56,650 --> 01:06:54,440
you acidic how alkaline is your blood

1450
01:06:57,190 --> 01:06:56,660
and body what is the pH of the water you

1451
01:06:58,900 --> 01:06:57,200
drink

1452
01:07:00,880 --> 01:06:58,910
we are Alka vision and we have the

1453
01:07:02,290 --> 01:07:00,890
answers drinking pure high alkaline

1454
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1455
01:07:05,740 --> 01:07:03,770
factors in maintaining vibrant health

1456
01:07:07,579 --> 01:07:05,750
and high energy because bacteria and

1457
01:07:09,440 --> 01:07:07,589
viruses cannot survive in an alkaline

1458
01:07:11,479 --> 01:07:09,450
high ph environment if your drinking

1459
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water isn't at a ph level of 8 or higher

1460
01:07:16,069 --> 01:07:13,890
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1461
01:07:17,779 --> 01:07:16,079
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1462
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1463
01:07:21,950 --> 01:07:20,069
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1464
01:07:23,900 --> 01:07:21,960
and health simply add 10 drops of

1465
01:07:25,459 --> 01:07:23,910
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1466
01:07:27,920 --> 01:07:25,469
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1467
01:07:30,049 --> 01:07:27,930
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1468
01:07:32,089 --> 01:07:30,059
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1469
01:07:34,519 --> 01:07:32,099
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1470
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1471
01:07:40,670 --> 01:07:38,700
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1472
01:07:43,190 --> 01:07:40,680
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1473
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1474
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1475
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1476
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comm we'd like to hear from you if you

1477
01:07:58,430 --> 01:07:55,200
have a comment or question about the

1478
01:08:01,849 --> 01:07:58,440
para cast sent it to news at the para

1479
01:08:04,339 --> 01:08:01,859
cast cotton that's news at the para cast

1480
01:08:06,920 --> 01:08:04,349
calm and don't forget to visit our

1481
01:08:12,559 --> 01:08:06,930
famous para cast community forums at

1482
01:08:14,089 --> 01:08:12,569
forum dr. podcast.com so return with us

1483
01:08:16,039 --> 01:08:14,099
now to those fielding days of yesteryear

1484
01:08:18,740 --> 01:08:16,049
I'm thinking of The Lone Ranger here

1485
01:08:21,530 --> 01:08:18,750
because we're going back to the 40s so

1486
01:08:25,879 --> 01:08:21,540
in the latter days of the shaver mystery

1487
01:08:27,950 --> 01:08:25,889
richard toronto we heard about UFOs then

1488
01:08:30,140 --> 01:08:27,960
called flying saucers and palmer was

1489
01:08:32,479 --> 01:08:30,150
collecting this stuff and then he got

1490
01:08:35,720 --> 01:08:32,489
involved in setting up fate magazine

1491
01:08:39,349 --> 01:08:35,730
let's talk about the first UFO reports

1492
01:08:41,570 --> 01:08:39,359
how shaver may have predicted the UFOs

1493
01:08:43,999 --> 01:08:41,580
according to some estimates in some

1494
01:08:47,390 --> 01:08:44,009
claims and how it led to fate magazine

1495
01:08:49,789 --> 01:08:47,400
shaver talked about some of the like i

1496
01:08:53,379 --> 01:08:49,799
said that these mexi's machines that the

1497
01:08:56,419 --> 01:08:53,389
elder race left below and one of the

1498
01:08:59,030 --> 01:08:56,429
transport vehicles was called a roll at

1499
01:09:01,899 --> 01:08:59,040
the way she ever described it it was

1500
01:09:05,120 --> 01:09:01,909
very similar to the way flying saucers

1501
01:09:07,479 --> 01:09:05,130
behaved they could come out of the

1502
01:09:11,030 --> 01:09:07,489
caverns and fly in the atmosphere and

1503
01:09:15,470 --> 01:09:11,040
they could even go into space this is

1504
01:09:18,979 --> 01:09:15,480
what Ray Palmer used as one of his proof

1505
01:09:20,879 --> 01:09:18,989
that the shaver mystery was indeed real

1506
01:09:22,979 --> 01:09:20,889
because once the

1507
01:09:26,999 --> 01:09:22,989
Island incident happened and then

1508
01:09:31,200 --> 01:09:27,009
Kenneth Arnold and flying saucers became

1509
01:09:33,570 --> 01:09:31,210
a big national subject Palmer used that

1510
01:09:35,849 --> 01:09:33,580
to tie into the shaper mystery but at

1511
01:09:37,919 --> 01:09:35,859
that point in time the shaver mystery

1512
01:09:42,570 --> 01:09:37,929
was already sliding out the door because

1513
01:09:45,120 --> 01:09:42,580
by 1947 if you told Palmer you gotta cut

1514
01:09:47,280 --> 01:09:45,130
loose this mystery party you know if you

1515
01:09:48,990 --> 01:09:47,290
want to print shavers science fiction

1516
01:09:50,609 --> 01:09:49,000
stories fine but we're not going to have

1517
01:09:52,859 --> 01:09:50,619
any more of the shaver mystery stuff

1518
01:09:56,160 --> 01:09:52,869
they didn't like talk about the flying

1519
01:09:58,250 --> 01:09:56,170
saucers because and I got this straight

1520
01:10:01,200 --> 01:09:58,260
from the horse's mouth when I talked to

1521
01:10:03,720 --> 01:10:01,210
William Hamling he said that the Ziff

1522
01:10:06,020 --> 01:10:03,730
Davis offices were constantly visited by

1523
01:10:09,030 --> 01:10:06,030
agents of the government and military

1524
01:10:11,430 --> 01:10:09,040
what they were interested in were things

1525
01:10:13,050 --> 01:10:11,440
that Ray Palmer was talking about you

1526
01:10:16,859 --> 01:10:13,060
know flying saucers in the shaver

1527
01:10:18,689 --> 01:10:16,869
mystery now it came to a time here where

1528
01:10:20,430 --> 01:10:18,699
because of one of those incidents we've

1529
01:10:23,850 --> 01:10:20,440
talked about before in the power cast

1530
01:10:26,820 --> 01:10:23,860
the Mori Island UFO sighting because of

1531
01:10:28,859 --> 01:10:26,830
that Palmer was visited and actually

1532
01:10:31,140 --> 01:10:28,869
vilified by some people in the

1533
01:10:33,510 --> 01:10:31,150
government such as Edward ruppelt who

1534
01:10:36,990 --> 01:10:33,520
called Maury island like the biggest

1535
01:10:39,780 --> 01:10:37,000
hoax in history and blamed the chicago

1536
01:10:41,640 --> 01:10:39,790
publisher for it the chicago publisher

1537
01:10:44,729 --> 01:10:41,650
being of course ray palmer tell us and

1538
01:10:47,220 --> 01:10:44,739
he wasn't the only one Palmer would was

1539
01:10:50,640 --> 01:10:47,230
publicly humiliated like that more than

1540
01:10:54,060 --> 01:10:50,650
once Martin Gardner in his book fads and

1541
01:10:56,220 --> 01:10:54,070
fallacies in the name of science he just

1542
01:10:58,680 --> 01:10:56,230
raked Palmer over the coals for that and

1543
01:11:02,040 --> 01:10:58,690
said that the two guys that were behind

1544
01:11:04,350 --> 01:11:02,050
the hoax just did it because this is

1545
01:11:06,390 --> 01:11:04,360
what the chicago publisher wanted them

1546
01:11:08,760 --> 01:11:06,400
to say that these fragments that they

1547
01:11:12,120 --> 01:11:08,770
picked up on the beach actually were

1548
01:11:15,030 --> 01:11:12,130
produced from a UFO and the crazy thing

1549
01:11:16,919 --> 01:11:15,040
is that even though that incident and

1550
01:11:20,810 --> 01:11:16,929
you say you've gone into it so maybe

1551
01:11:25,470 --> 01:11:20,820
your listeners know that two Air Force

1552
01:11:27,479 --> 01:11:25,480
officers died in an air crash because of

1553
01:11:29,520 --> 01:11:27,489
you know them going up there to

1554
01:11:31,950 --> 01:11:29,530
investigate this and then their plane

1555
01:11:34,920 --> 01:11:31,960
mysteriously crashes with the so-called

1556
01:11:38,040 --> 01:11:34,930
UFO debris on board

1557
01:11:40,770 --> 01:11:38,050
that was never recovered and yet the two

1558
01:11:43,170 --> 01:11:40,780
guys that were involved Harold Dahl and

1559
01:11:45,480 --> 01:11:43,180
and Fred L Chrisman were never

1560
01:11:48,390 --> 01:11:45,490
prosecuted I mean that that's totally

1561
01:11:50,360 --> 01:11:48,400
crazy they fabricated a situation that

1562
01:11:53,550 --> 01:11:50,370
dragged in the Air Force intelligence

1563
01:11:55,440 --> 01:11:53,560
two people died a plane was lost and the

1564
01:11:58,080 --> 01:11:55,450
only person that was blamed was Ray

1565
01:12:00,150 --> 01:11:58,090
Palmer and look at Ray Palmer do accept

1566
01:12:02,790 --> 01:12:00,160
as I gather the only thing he really did

1567
01:12:05,310 --> 01:12:02,800
was to ask Kenneth Arnold who saw the

1568
01:12:07,650 --> 01:12:05,320
nine this shape table jex over Mount

1569
01:12:11,460 --> 01:12:07,660
Ranier folks while flying his private

1570
01:12:13,200 --> 01:12:11,470
plane he was dispatched to go to Tacoma

1571
01:12:16,470 --> 01:12:13,210
Washington to figure out what was going

1572
01:12:19,050 --> 01:12:16,480
on yet he was and he was not too happy

1573
01:12:21,630 --> 01:12:19,060
about it after a while because Chrisman

1574
01:12:23,610 --> 01:12:21,640
and a lot of people now there was a

1575
01:12:26,340 --> 01:12:23,620
steam shovel press book and you probably

1576
01:12:29,280 --> 01:12:26,350
know it what was it called the Chrisman

1577
01:12:31,890 --> 01:12:29,290
UFO conspiracy or something like that by

1578
01:12:34,080 --> 01:12:31,900
Ken Thomas that was a very well

1579
01:12:37,110 --> 01:12:34,090
researched and huge book on that whole

1580
01:12:37,770 --> 01:12:37,120
incident and it seems to me that it was

1581
01:12:43,500 --> 01:12:37,780
a setup

1582
01:12:45,740 --> 01:12:43,510
publicly humiliate Ray Palmer by sucking

1583
01:12:49,140 --> 01:12:45,750
him in the Ray Palmer was a sucker for

1584
01:12:51,510 --> 01:12:49,150
fluttering into it because Chrisman had

1585
01:12:54,030 --> 01:12:51,520
written a couple of hoax letters to

1586
01:12:56,340 --> 01:12:54,040
fantastic adventures and amazing stories

1587
01:12:58,380 --> 01:12:56,350
and later Ray Palmer said he didn't

1588
01:13:00,690 --> 01:12:58,390
really believe those letters but when

1589
01:13:03,630 --> 01:13:00,700
Chrisman called him up and said hey I've

1590
01:13:05,070 --> 01:13:03,640
got this flying saucer debris here what

1591
01:13:07,800 --> 01:13:05,080
a Ray Palmer do

1592
01:13:09,840 --> 01:13:07,810
he's been Kenneth Arnold out there to

1593
01:13:12,660 --> 01:13:09,850
investigate and he got even deeper in

1594
01:13:15,560 --> 01:13:12,670
the whole met by the way why did Palmer

1595
01:13:19,170 --> 01:13:15,570
and Curtis fuller found fate magazine

1596
01:13:21,630 --> 01:13:19,180
well Ray Palmer knew that he wasn't

1597
01:13:23,550 --> 01:13:21,640
going to be able to publish the kind of

1598
01:13:26,130 --> 01:13:23,560
material that he wanted to publish like

1599
01:13:28,410 --> 01:13:26,140
flying saucers and dagger mysteries

1600
01:13:29,970 --> 01:13:28,420
things like that and and metaphysics he

1601
01:13:32,610 --> 01:13:29,980
was getting more and more into

1602
01:13:36,390 --> 01:13:32,620
metaphysics so he knew he was going to

1603
01:13:39,510 --> 01:13:36,400
quit miss Davis and he did that in 1949

1604
01:13:41,790 --> 01:13:39,520
but he wanted to have something going on

1605
01:13:43,770 --> 01:13:41,800
before he quit he wanted to found his

1606
01:13:47,459 --> 01:13:43,780
own publishing house which he did and

1607
01:13:50,100 --> 01:13:47,469
that was fate magazine was the

1608
01:13:54,089 --> 01:13:50,110
first offering in 1948 spring and

1609
01:13:56,459 --> 01:13:54,099
interestingly enough Richard shaver had

1610
01:13:58,950 --> 01:13:56,469
signed the corporation papers and well

1611
01:14:01,049 --> 01:13:58,960
as Chester Dyer and I think handlings

1612
01:14:03,899 --> 01:14:01,059
name might have been on those papers too

1613
01:14:07,350 --> 01:14:03,909
and that was the beginning of kind of an

1614
01:14:11,430 --> 01:14:07,360
incestuous relationship between wrapped

1615
01:14:14,040 --> 01:14:11,440
in her circle as he was called by

1616
01:14:16,950 --> 01:14:14,050
Hamling where they were constantly

1617
01:14:19,680 --> 01:14:16,960
signing these incorporation papers and

1618
01:14:21,540 --> 01:14:19,690
it eventually got Ray Palmer and Richard

1619
01:14:23,489 --> 01:14:21,550
shaver into a lot of trouble we'll go

1620
01:14:26,069 --> 01:14:23,499
into what happened there in a moment but

1621
01:14:27,689 --> 01:14:26,079
I kind of think in retrospect that with

1622
01:14:31,229 --> 01:14:27,699
fake magazine as a mass-market

1623
01:14:33,540 --> 01:14:31,239
publication that very much kept the UFO

1624
01:14:36,270 --> 01:14:33,550
subject alive in the late 40s and early

1625
01:14:38,339 --> 01:14:36,280
50s oh yeah it did because practically

1626
01:14:40,830 --> 01:14:38,349
every issue there were flying saucers on

1627
01:14:43,680 --> 01:14:40,840
the cover and Ray Palmer knew he was he

1628
01:14:47,359 --> 01:14:43,690
was riding the wave of interest in

1629
01:14:50,089 --> 01:14:47,369
flying saucers and after World War two

1630
01:14:53,759 --> 01:14:50,099
people were just dying to get away from

1631
01:14:55,919 --> 01:14:53,769
the war and and you know the atomic bomb

1632
01:14:58,859 --> 01:14:55,929
had been dropped atomic energy was

1633
01:15:00,629 --> 01:14:58,869
really big space flight with the u2

1634
01:15:03,719 --> 01:15:00,639
rockets that the Germans were using

1635
01:15:05,879 --> 01:15:03,729
everything was converging into a new age

1636
01:15:07,080 --> 01:15:05,889
that we were getting into and the flying

1637
01:15:09,419 --> 01:15:07,090
saucers were part of that

1638
01:15:11,069 --> 01:15:09,429
alright let's kind of move very quickly

1639
01:15:12,719 --> 01:15:11,079
here because there's a lot of things

1640
01:15:15,359 --> 01:15:12,729
that want to talk about with regard to

1641
01:15:17,100 --> 01:15:15,369
my encounters with Palmer and shaver and

1642
01:15:20,729 --> 01:15:17,110
Geneva's encounters with Schaffer that

1643
01:15:23,569 --> 01:15:20,739
is Palmer eventually left fate magazine

1644
01:15:26,819 --> 01:15:23,579
and start his own company with

1645
01:15:29,609 --> 01:15:26,829
publications of his own search first

1646
01:15:31,529 --> 01:15:29,619
called mystic kind of a alternative to

1647
01:15:33,270 --> 01:15:31,539
fate magazine was there a falling out

1648
01:15:34,469 --> 01:15:33,280
between the Palmer's and the shavers

1649
01:15:36,959 --> 01:15:34,479
I've heard a couple of stories about

1650
01:15:40,290 --> 01:15:36,969
this there was it was kind of an

1651
01:15:43,649 --> 01:15:40,300
on-again off-again thing dotty shaver

1652
01:15:45,899 --> 01:15:43,659
Richard's wife would bring it up to me

1653
01:15:47,939 --> 01:15:45,909
occasionally but she would never go into

1654
01:15:51,359 --> 01:15:47,949
it she just said there was a cooling-off

1655
01:15:53,790 --> 01:15:51,369
between them but yet and this was up in

1656
01:15:56,969 --> 01:15:53,800
Wisconsin when when shavers were living

1657
01:15:59,979 --> 01:15:56,979
up there and then the Palmers came to

1658
01:16:03,100 --> 01:15:59,989
live there to 1950 was he here

1659
01:16:05,890 --> 01:16:03,110
Palmer's move to ham Hearst and 1949 is

1660
01:16:08,770 --> 01:16:05,900
when the shavers was there but it didn't

1661
01:16:10,569 --> 01:16:08,780
seem to shut off their friendship at all

1662
01:16:12,250 --> 01:16:10,579
they they would still come over every

1663
01:16:14,140 --> 01:16:12,260
Saturday night the shavers would and

1664
01:16:17,080 --> 01:16:14,150
they would play chests and they would

1665
01:16:19,390 --> 01:16:17,090
have Ray Palmer's potato pancake dinners

1666
01:16:21,220 --> 01:16:19,400
okay but that was Palmer and shaver I

1667
01:16:23,140 --> 01:16:21,230
was thinking of the Fuller's and the

1668
01:16:25,239 --> 01:16:23,150
Palmer right and we'll get into that in

1669
01:16:27,700 --> 01:16:25,249
a moment we have Richard Toronto joining

1670
01:16:38,380 --> 01:16:27,710
us with Geneva Hagen Jean Steinberg and

1671
01:16:45,170 --> 01:16:41,959
the GC and radio network providing the

1672
01:16:49,880 --> 01:16:45,180
world with hard-hitting talk radio G C

1673
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and great talk radio starts here graphic

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these survival seeds are actually more

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1707
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1710
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last to say thank you for being a loyal

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1712
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1715
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1716
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a few of the IRS back taxes listen

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1718
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1720
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1721
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1722
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eliminate your tax debts and end your

1723
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tax nightmare hi I'm Dan pillow I've

1724
01:19:07,429 --> 01:19:06,059
helped thousands of people reduce and

1725
01:19:08,989 --> 01:19:07,439
eliminate tax debts they couldn't pay

1726
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and after more than 30 years of

1727
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experience dealing with the IRS I can

1728
01:19:14,419 --> 01:19:12,419
tell you there's no such thing as a

1729
01:19:16,429 --> 01:19:14,429
hopeless tax case and with the IRS as

1730
01:19:18,169 --> 01:19:16,439
new policies it's easier than ever to

1731
01:19:20,239 --> 01:19:18,179
put your text debt behind you once and

1732
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for all call now at eight hundred three

1733
01:19:24,529 --> 01:19:22,499
four six six eight to nine to learn how

1734
01:19:25,699 --> 01:19:24,539
I can help you you know your IRS debt

1735
01:19:27,020 --> 01:19:25,709
will not go away by itself

1736
01:19:30,469 --> 01:19:27,030
but you don't have to live in fear

1737
01:19:32,270 --> 01:19:30,479
anymore call 803 four six six eight two

1738
01:19:34,580 --> 01:19:32,280
nine learn how I can help you eliminate

1739
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1740
01:19:38,120 --> 01:19:36,119
and negotiate a settlement with the IRS

1741
01:19:38,870 --> 01:19:38,130
that will put your tax nightmare behind

1742
01:19:42,949 --> 01:19:38,880
you forever

1743
01:19:49,540 --> 01:19:42,959
call 834 no tax or go to tax help

1744
01:19:54,229 --> 01:19:52,009
digestive health is the key to wellness

1745
01:19:56,810 --> 01:19:54,239
and elimination of toxins that bears

1746
01:19:58,659 --> 01:19:56,820
repeating digestive health is the key to

1747
01:20:01,429 --> 01:19:58,669
wellness and elimination of toxins and

1748
01:20:04,069 --> 01:20:01,439
pro-am one daily probiotic cleanse is

1749
01:20:06,409 --> 01:20:04,079
the key to digestive health pro-am one

1750
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is a powerful liquid probiotic strong

1751
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enough to cleanse gentle enough to use

1752
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every day pro em1 as dairy wheat and soy

1753
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free contains all-natural and certified

1754
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1755
01:20:17,750 --> 01:20:16,139
preservatives or animal products

1756
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supports a healthy digestive and immune

1757
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1758
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absorption of food nutrients aids and

1759
01:20:25,580 --> 01:20:23,340
controlling yeast infections is never

1760
01:20:27,229 --> 01:20:25,590
freeze-dried and uses three groups of

1761
01:20:29,449 --> 01:20:27,239
live viable beneficial microbes to

1762
01:20:31,459 --> 01:20:29,459
cleanse and remove toxins order pro a.m.

1763
01:20:36,259 --> 01:20:31,469
on daily probiotic cleanse at Tarragona

1764
01:20:39,439 --> 01:20:36,269
calm spelled ter a gan IX calm

1765
01:20:41,600 --> 01:20:39,449
Tarragona calm or call toll-free 866

1766
01:20:43,549 --> 01:20:41,610
three six nine three six seven eight

1767
01:20:46,850 --> 01:20:43,559
that's eight six six three six nine

1768
01:20:50,210 --> 01:20:46,860
three six seven eight pro em1 the raw

1769
01:20:57,590 --> 01:20:54,460
[Music]

1770
01:20:59,570 --> 01:20:57,600
this is a store 70 author of you up on

1771
01:21:04,520 --> 01:20:59,580
this reason you're listening to the para

1772
01:21:06,560 --> 01:21:04,530
Cass we're going back through time

1773
01:21:08,780 --> 01:21:06,570
world--well Maria is the book from

1774
01:21:10,820 --> 01:21:08,790
Richard Toronto about Richard shaver and

1775
01:21:12,920 --> 01:21:10,830
Ray Palmer with Geneva Hagen Jean and

1776
01:21:15,200 --> 01:21:12,930
Chris now I've heard different stories

1777
01:21:17,540 --> 01:21:15,210
about this we had Jerome Clark on the

1778
01:21:19,850 --> 01:21:17,550
power cast once and he talked about the

1779
01:21:22,010 --> 01:21:19,860
falling out between Ray Palmer and

1780
01:21:23,750 --> 01:21:22,020
Curtis fuller over fate magazine and

1781
01:21:25,790 --> 01:21:23,760
another reason yet another reason for

1782
01:21:27,500 --> 01:21:25,800
him to divorce himself from that

1783
01:21:30,110 --> 01:21:27,510
publication when he moved to Amherst

1784
01:21:33,260 --> 01:21:30,120
Wisconsin I didn't hear that is the

1785
01:21:36,500 --> 01:21:33,270
reason that he moved to him Hearst but I

1786
01:21:38,060 --> 01:21:36,510
wasn't privy to that information point

1787
01:21:40,490 --> 01:21:38,070
is Palmer starts his own publishing

1788
01:21:43,010 --> 01:21:40,500
house and it's interesting to then the

1789
01:21:45,410 --> 01:21:43,020
segue over how it changed the lives of

1790
01:21:47,960 --> 01:21:45,420
many people so we had flying saucers

1791
01:21:50,210 --> 01:21:47,970
magazine which came out every month

1792
01:21:52,850 --> 01:21:50,220
every two months whatever and it had a

1793
01:21:56,030 --> 01:21:52,860
little segment in there a free area

1794
01:21:58,430 --> 01:21:56,040
called saucer club news and it was

1795
01:22:00,110 --> 01:21:58,440
people mostly by teenagers who start

1796
01:22:01,790 --> 01:22:00,120
their own flying saucer clubs like I did

1797
01:22:04,250 --> 01:22:01,800
and they get in touch with other people

1798
01:22:09,620 --> 01:22:04,260
and strangely enough these all became

1799
01:22:11,870 --> 01:22:09,630
our lifelong friends but in 1965 I was

1800
01:22:15,560 --> 01:22:11,880
working this is still as a teenager I'm

1801
01:22:19,490 --> 01:22:15,570
as old as I look for Jim Mosely at

1802
01:22:21,860 --> 01:22:19,500
saucer News and Jim organized this trip

1803
01:22:23,930 --> 01:22:21,870
to Chicago where we met up with a guy

1804
01:22:27,140 --> 01:22:23,940
named Dale Reddick a UFO researcher Rick

1805
01:22:28,730 --> 01:22:27,150
hilberg and I think somebody else I

1806
01:22:31,490 --> 01:22:28,740
don't remember who I was

1807
01:22:34,160 --> 01:22:31,500
Jim myself probably Island Greenfield

1808
01:22:37,580 --> 01:22:34,170
has also been on the para cast and in

1809
01:22:39,080 --> 01:22:37,590
Chicago we met up with Jacques Vallee he

1810
01:22:41,870 --> 01:22:39,090
had a book alcohol anatomy of a

1811
01:22:43,070 --> 01:22:41,880
phenomenon if you remember so we had one

1812
01:22:45,890 --> 01:22:43,080
of the first interviews with Jacques

1813
01:22:48,800 --> 01:22:45,900
filet had a pleasant time we decided to

1814
01:22:52,160 --> 01:22:48,810
go up to visit Ray Palmer and so this is

1815
01:22:54,590 --> 01:22:52,170
in 1965 we drive up to the small town

1816
01:22:57,470 --> 01:22:54,600
and we kind of get lost

1817
01:22:59,420 --> 01:22:57,480
Amherst had a population of about 500

1818
01:23:01,280 --> 01:22:59,430
people and so we asked somebody to the

1819
01:23:02,900 --> 01:23:01,290
gas station you know Ray Palmer of

1820
01:23:04,669 --> 01:23:02,910
course we do we didn't realize he was a

1821
01:23:05,989 --> 01:23:04,679
pillar of the community and

1822
01:23:07,910 --> 01:23:05,999
everything and they sent us to his home

1823
01:23:09,589 --> 01:23:07,920
and we kind of expected modest

1824
01:23:12,219 --> 01:23:09,599
surroundings and they had this huge

1825
01:23:15,080 --> 01:23:12,229
house with beautiful picture windows

1826
01:23:18,979 --> 01:23:15,090
overlooking a Little River called the

1827
01:23:21,169 --> 01:23:18,989
tomorrow River so once we got there I

1828
01:23:22,699 --> 01:23:21,179
knew him already what Palmer looked like

1829
01:23:24,949 --> 01:23:22,709
about his deformity and you really

1830
01:23:26,689 --> 01:23:24,959
didn't think about it after you met him

1831
01:23:29,209 --> 01:23:26,699
you talked to him for a while real

1832
01:23:32,239 --> 01:23:29,219
pleasant guy and I asked him a key

1833
01:23:34,279 --> 01:23:32,249
question here which I guess started part

1834
01:23:36,819 --> 01:23:34,289
of the feuding with Richard Schaffer and

1835
01:23:39,290 --> 01:23:36,829
I said I asked him some questions about

1836
01:23:43,759 --> 01:23:39,300
the Schaefer mystery ain't came out with

1837
01:23:47,209 --> 01:23:43,769
the fact that Schaefer spent the time in

1838
01:23:50,029 --> 01:23:47,219
a mental institution when he claimed he

1839
01:23:52,100 --> 01:23:50,039
was in the caves and that's where things

1840
01:23:54,350 --> 01:23:52,110
really got out of hand because I then

1841
01:23:56,929 --> 01:23:54,360
conveyed that to shaver and she ever

1842
01:23:59,000 --> 01:23:56,939
said no no no it was a real experience

1843
01:24:01,879 --> 01:23:59,010
Palmer was wrong but it was a

1844
01:24:05,000 --> 01:24:01,889
fascinating sort of situation there yeah

1845
01:24:07,250 --> 01:24:05,010
I know savers mom was really upset when

1846
01:24:10,219 --> 01:24:07,260
Ray Palmer let the cat out of the bag

1847
01:24:12,709 --> 01:24:10,229
about the asylum he wouldn't talk to Ray

1848
01:24:15,799 --> 01:24:12,719
Palmer after that now that's a good

1849
01:24:18,109 --> 01:24:15,809
question - it happened to me in 65 that

1850
01:24:20,239 --> 01:24:18,119
we got this information I hadn't heard

1851
01:24:23,330 --> 01:24:20,249
it before is that the first time you

1852
01:24:26,239 --> 01:24:23,340
revealed it I think it was earlier than

1853
01:24:29,060 --> 01:24:26,249
that when they had problems with like I

1854
01:24:32,209 --> 01:24:29,070
alluded to with signing of corporate

1855
01:24:34,429 --> 01:24:32,219
papers they got into this porno

1856
01:24:39,350 --> 01:24:34,439
publishing scandal called the freedom

1857
01:24:41,149 --> 01:24:39,360
publishing company it was handling doing

1858
01:24:42,709 --> 01:24:41,159
cos handling by that time it dumped

1859
01:24:45,350 --> 01:24:42,719
science fiction and he was going with

1860
01:24:49,040 --> 01:24:45,360
girlie mags like road and he was

1861
01:24:51,140 --> 01:24:49,050
publishing softcore porn paperbacks he

1862
01:24:54,859 --> 01:24:51,150
was a friend of were a former friend of

1863
01:24:57,290 --> 01:24:54,869
Hugh Hefner well not according to Hefner

1864
01:25:01,399 --> 01:24:57,300
but according to him when he was after

1865
01:25:03,140 --> 01:25:01,409
denies denies that he there was some

1866
01:25:05,750 --> 01:25:03,150
kind of falling out between Kepner and

1867
01:25:07,520 --> 01:25:05,760
Hamling - but yeah they were

1868
01:25:09,410 --> 01:25:07,530
contemporaries at one time they both

1869
01:25:12,949 --> 01:25:09,420
work for the same publishing company in

1870
01:25:15,589 --> 01:25:12,959
the early 15th but so where were we at

1871
01:25:17,089 --> 01:25:15,599
that point okay so where it came out

1872
01:25:18,529 --> 01:25:17,099
that shaver had been in the mental

1873
01:25:21,979 --> 01:25:18,539
institution of the outgrow

1874
01:25:22,789 --> 01:25:21,989
of that and Palmer still said in the

1875
01:25:25,579 --> 01:25:22,799
interview with me

1876
01:25:28,549 --> 01:25:25,589
I still believe shaver but of course he

1877
01:25:30,139 --> 01:25:28,559
didn't think of physical came to that

1878
01:25:32,449 --> 01:25:30,149
point he was thinking of a mental

1879
01:25:34,520 --> 01:25:32,459
process of the astral this is where a

1880
01:25:36,079 --> 01:25:34,530
lot of that started and as I said I

1881
01:25:36,379 --> 01:25:36,089
wrote to shaver and said what's this all

1882
01:25:39,709 --> 01:25:36,389
about

1883
01:25:41,719 --> 01:25:39,719
and he went livid in those letters

1884
01:25:45,169 --> 01:25:41,729
Geneva you probably saw some of those

1885
01:25:45,889 --> 01:25:45,179
right I don't remember those particular

1886
01:25:48,709 --> 01:25:45,899
letters

1887
01:25:50,659 --> 01:25:48,719
I remember we talked about it right I

1888
01:25:53,989 --> 01:25:50,669
know that we had an article and caveat

1889
01:25:57,469 --> 01:25:53,999
emptor magazine from shaver yes well I

1890
01:26:01,279 --> 01:25:57,479
think that it came out during a meeting

1891
01:26:06,889 --> 01:26:01,289
with some lawyers at ray Palmer's house

1892
01:26:09,349 --> 01:26:06,899
in 1963 that's when he crapola hit the

1893
01:26:12,409 --> 01:26:09,359
fan over this porno publishing thing and

1894
01:26:14,299 --> 01:26:12,419
then the media got a hold of it and Ray

1895
01:26:18,589 --> 01:26:14,309
Palmer didn't want his standing in the

1896
01:26:21,559 --> 01:26:18,599
community to be ruined and like I point

1897
01:26:24,259 --> 01:26:21,569
out in the book it appears that it was

1898
01:26:27,829 --> 01:26:24,269
decided that shaver would take the fall

1899
01:26:29,750 --> 01:26:27,839
for the whole thing and that I think is

1900
01:26:32,779 --> 01:26:29,760
when it started leaking out that shaver

1901
01:26:35,599 --> 01:26:32,789
had been in a mental hospital no Ray

1902
01:26:36,500 --> 01:26:35,609
Palmer wasn't a dumb guy when shaver was

1903
01:26:39,649 --> 01:26:36,510
writing to him

1904
01:26:43,069 --> 01:26:39,659
I am almost positive he knew that shaver

1905
01:26:46,459 --> 01:26:43,079
was a former mental patient but think

1906
01:26:48,469 --> 01:26:46,469
about it if he said yeah my author the

1907
01:26:50,149 --> 01:26:48,479
former mental patient and he's getting

1908
01:26:52,849 --> 01:26:50,159
all this information that said that

1909
01:26:55,189 --> 01:26:52,859
we're claiming is true and in our

1910
01:26:57,439 --> 01:26:55,199
stories and he couldn't say that his

1911
01:26:59,449 --> 01:26:57,449
publisher would not have allowed in the

1912
01:27:03,439 --> 01:26:59,459
printed stuff so he kept his Yap shut

1913
01:27:06,369 --> 01:27:03,449
about this you can see in the letters

1914
01:27:10,629 --> 01:27:06,379
that he published in the hidden world

1915
01:27:13,789 --> 01:27:10,639
that shaver was talking a lot about

1916
01:27:17,779 --> 01:27:13,799
mental hospitals nut houses as he called

1917
01:27:19,909 --> 01:27:17,789
him ugh houses how his wife convinced

1918
01:27:21,619 --> 01:27:19,919
him that he had to go see a doctor and

1919
01:27:23,539 --> 01:27:21,629
how they'll put you in there and you

1920
01:27:25,369 --> 01:27:23,549
don't want to get in I mean Ray Palmer

1921
01:27:27,759 --> 01:27:25,379
had to have known that Richard shaver

1922
01:27:32,119 --> 01:27:27,769
was in a mental hospital as early as

1923
01:27:32,450 --> 01:27:32,129
1945 but if he had said that it would

1924
01:27:35,360 --> 01:27:32,460
have looked

1925
01:27:36,950 --> 01:27:35,370
pretty bad on Ray Palmer or taking

1926
01:27:38,479 --> 01:27:36,960
advantage of someone like that and

1927
01:27:41,510 --> 01:27:38,489
that's what people would have said I

1928
01:27:43,280 --> 01:27:41,520
mean they said that anyway but if Ray

1929
01:27:46,070 --> 01:27:43,290
Palmer said yeah I knew he was in a

1930
01:27:49,220 --> 01:27:46,080
hospital all time it didn't come out

1931
01:27:53,660 --> 01:27:49,230
until many many years later oh the story

1932
01:27:56,390 --> 01:27:53,670
was a nurse somehow lifted his personal

1933
01:27:59,360 --> 01:27:56,400
files from the asylum and showed him to

1934
01:28:01,880 --> 01:27:59,370
me well that's crazy no nurse would lift

1935
01:28:04,040 --> 01:28:01,890
a patient's files and show them to some

1936
01:28:07,880 --> 01:28:04,050
science fiction editor but that was Ray

1937
01:28:10,220 --> 01:28:07,890
Palmer story so he had to let the cat

1938
01:28:12,200 --> 01:28:10,230
out of the bag eventually and I think it

1939
01:28:15,650 --> 01:28:12,210
happened about that time when you talked

1940
01:28:17,990 --> 01:28:15,660
to him maybe a little earlier now in the

1941
01:28:20,120 --> 01:28:18,000
latter years of shavers life and we'll

1942
01:28:21,890 --> 01:28:20,130
get into what Palmer did but in the

1943
01:28:23,840 --> 01:28:21,900
latter years of shavers life he got

1944
01:28:26,600 --> 01:28:23,850
involved in something called rock books

1945
01:28:29,150 --> 01:28:26,610
and what I'd like to do here is have you

1946
01:28:32,300 --> 01:28:29,160
briefly tell us about that but then

1947
01:28:35,360 --> 01:28:32,310
we'll talk about the experiences that

1948
01:28:37,220 --> 01:28:35,370
Geneva and I had envisioning shaver and

1949
01:28:39,380 --> 01:28:37,230
playing around with the rocks and the

1950
01:28:42,950 --> 01:28:39,390
rock books but how did this start

1951
01:28:45,080 --> 01:28:42,960
Richard it started up in Wisconsin most

1952
01:28:46,790 --> 01:28:45,090
people seem to feel because all of his

1953
01:28:48,920 --> 01:28:46,800
work seemed to be coming from summit

1954
01:28:54,320 --> 01:28:48,930
that it started there but it didn't it

1955
01:28:57,170 --> 01:28:54,330
started around 1962 up in Wisconsin and

1956
01:29:00,800 --> 01:28:57,180
it was actually Dottie shaver that

1957
01:29:02,780 --> 01:29:00,810
discovered the rock book and shaver even

1958
01:29:04,790 --> 01:29:02,790
admits that but he didn't pay any

1959
01:29:08,120 --> 01:29:04,800
attention to it at first Dottie said its

1960
01:29:12,229 --> 01:29:08,130
laughed at her at first which is kind of

1961
01:29:14,180 --> 01:29:12,239
funny but then all of a sudden a few

1962
01:29:17,150 --> 01:29:14,190
weeks after with these rocks just

1963
01:29:19,970 --> 01:29:17,160
sitting on his desk something clicked

1964
01:29:23,120 --> 01:29:19,980
and is in his head and that's when he

1965
01:29:25,040 --> 01:29:23,130
discovered the rock book many years

1966
01:29:27,560 --> 01:29:25,050
later god he said I wish he'd never

1967
01:29:30,200 --> 01:29:27,570
gotten onto that I wish I'd never put

1968
01:29:32,510 --> 01:29:30,210
those rocks on his desk because it

1969
01:29:35,510 --> 01:29:32,520
became an obsession now these books

1970
01:29:39,740 --> 01:29:35,520
supposedly depicted were books

1971
01:29:42,170 --> 01:29:39,750
supposedly depicting records of some

1972
01:29:44,240 --> 01:29:42,180
kind of ancient civilization but

1973
01:29:45,810 --> 01:29:44,250
supposedly you need special equipment to

1974
01:29:48,270 --> 01:29:45,820
look at them it's

1975
01:29:50,100 --> 01:29:48,280
almost as if they had recorded their

1976
01:29:51,660 --> 01:29:50,110
stuff assuming they're real which could

1977
01:29:55,590 --> 01:29:51,670
be very complicated here to talk about

1978
01:29:57,540 --> 01:29:55,600
in some kind of crystalline form and I

1979
01:30:00,470 --> 01:29:57,550
think of the movie Superman the movie

1980
01:30:03,270 --> 01:30:00,480
where Superman first becoming

1981
01:30:06,450 --> 01:30:03,280
knowledgeable about his past takes these

1982
01:30:10,020 --> 01:30:06,460
crystals and uses them to playback the

1983
01:30:11,910 --> 01:30:10,030
holographic images of jor-el and I think

1984
01:30:13,500 --> 01:30:11,920
all right that's cool but what about

1985
01:30:16,860 --> 01:30:13,510
shaver that's kind of almost the same

1986
01:30:19,230 --> 01:30:16,870
thing that in his own way shaver was

1987
01:30:21,390 --> 01:30:19,240
seeing what he believed were records the

1988
01:30:23,340 --> 01:30:21,400
question of course is were they really

1989
01:30:26,340 --> 01:30:23,350
records of anything or just a gigantic

1990
01:30:28,500 --> 01:30:26,350
war Satch test richard toronto joins us

1991
01:30:31,210 --> 01:30:28,510
with jean chris and geneva Hagen you're

1992
01:30:39,240 --> 01:30:31,220
in the para cast

1993
01:30:44,890 --> 01:30:41,460
America's number one source for

1994
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independent authoring for over a decade

1995
01:30:51,970 --> 01:30:49,730
we are the gcn radio network whether

1996
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it's personal mail whether it's business

1997
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1998
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1999
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viruses well Polaris Mail offers

2000
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2001
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2003
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2004
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2005
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2006
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2007
01:31:25,660 --> 01:31:22,880
placing an order online the site went

2008
01:31:28,120 --> 01:31:25,670
down it just stopped responding it took

2009
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hours before it returned but I'd already

2010
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placed the order with another company if

2011
01:31:33,730 --> 01:31:31,700
your site goes down you could lose

2012
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2013
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personal site you'll want to know it's

2014
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2015
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2016
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most reliable networks in the world

2017
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2018
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I web comm that's iWeb comm what's safer

2019
01:31:54,550 --> 01:31:51,260
and cheaper than prescription drugs

2020
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2021
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teas herbal remedies are much safer and

2022
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2023
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2024
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2026
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2027
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2028
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2029
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2030
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2031
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2034
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2037
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2038
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2039
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2040
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2041
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2042
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2043
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2044
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2045
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2049
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2050
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2054
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2055
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2061
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2062
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2063
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2064
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2065
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2066
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2067
01:33:55,060 --> 01:33:52,610
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2068
01:33:56,740 --> 01:33:55,070
lot of research into why even if I had a

2069
01:33:58,750 --> 01:33:56,750
pretty good sized meal that I was still

2070
01:34:01,300 --> 01:33:58,760
starving and my research led me to a

2071
01:34:02,830 --> 01:34:01,310
well known fact that most of the soils

2072
01:34:04,090 --> 01:34:02,840
that we grow our crops on here in the

2073
01:34:05,710 --> 01:34:04,100
United States and across the

2074
01:34:08,350 --> 01:34:05,720
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2075
01:34:10,960 --> 01:34:08,360
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2076
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2077
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2078
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2079
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2080
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2081
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2082
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2083
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2085
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2086
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2087
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2088
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2089
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2090
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2091
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2092
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2093
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[Music]

2094
01:35:00,870 --> 01:34:58,570
this is the wrong tire crosser of the

2095
01:35:07,500 --> 01:35:00,880
UFO encyclopedia in other books you're

2096
01:35:09,450 --> 01:35:07,510
listening to the parrot calf so briefly

2097
01:35:12,900 --> 01:35:09,460
if I summed it up Richard Toronto about

2098
01:35:15,480 --> 01:35:12,910
shavers rock books yes you have and the

2099
01:35:18,750 --> 01:35:15,490
ancient race of people that he spoke on

2100
01:35:22,200 --> 01:35:18,760
that left this huge library as he called

2101
01:35:24,420 --> 01:35:22,210
it all over the planet it was a

2102
01:35:26,520 --> 01:35:24,430
civilization very similar to the one

2103
01:35:29,630 --> 01:35:26,530
that he discovered when he went into the

2104
01:35:33,630 --> 01:35:29,640
cavern they were using high-tech

2105
01:35:36,930 --> 01:35:33,640
machinery technology just like his other

2106
01:35:40,320 --> 01:35:36,940
stories and it was kind of a blending of

2107
01:35:42,150 --> 01:35:40,330
his amazing stories time where he went

2108
01:35:44,220 --> 01:35:42,160
into the caverns and he brought back all

2109
01:35:47,550 --> 01:35:44,230
this information now he was getting

2110
01:35:49,980 --> 01:35:47,560
similar information from the rock books

2111
01:35:52,800 --> 01:35:49,990
now I gather very few people actually

2112
01:35:55,320 --> 01:35:52,810
believe this but you know what Geneva

2113
01:35:57,630 --> 01:35:55,330
and I in those years look at the rocks

2114
01:35:59,820 --> 01:35:57,640
was there a point Geneva do you recall

2115
01:36:01,500 --> 01:35:59,830
where we suddenly said you know what

2116
01:36:02,760 --> 01:36:01,510
maybe there's something here maybe we

2117
01:36:05,850 --> 01:36:02,770
can see those things too

2118
01:36:08,190 --> 01:36:05,860
well I remember looking not at the rock

2119
01:36:11,700 --> 01:36:08,200
itself but a photograph he has sent us

2120
01:36:14,940 --> 01:36:11,710
of the rocks and suddenly I could see in

2121
01:36:18,600 --> 01:36:14,950
it to these almost cartoon like little

2122
01:36:23,820 --> 01:36:18,610
pictures of faces elf-like faces with

2123
01:36:27,030 --> 01:36:23,830
floppy dr. Seuss type hats and they came

2124
01:36:29,100 --> 01:36:27,040
out quite clearly but to the point that

2125
01:36:31,620 --> 01:36:29,110
I thought wait a minute this has got to

2126
01:36:33,900 --> 01:36:31,630
be my projections because nobody would

2127
01:36:37,650 --> 01:36:33,910
have put this in any kind of rock book

2128
01:36:41,820 --> 01:36:37,660
and unfortunately those photographs were

2129
01:36:44,250 --> 01:36:41,830
lost in a move but around the year 2000

2130
01:36:47,700 --> 01:36:44,260
or shortly thereafter I saw an article

2131
01:36:51,210 --> 01:36:47,710
where explorers and Brandt's had found a

2132
01:36:54,390 --> 01:36:51,220
Stone Age cave with paintings on the

2133
01:36:56,280 --> 01:36:54,400
wall that showed modern type drawings

2134
01:36:58,050 --> 01:36:56,290
that looked very much like this with

2135
01:37:00,300 --> 01:36:58,060
creatures with black bee hats or

2136
01:37:04,830 --> 01:37:00,310
actually kind of cartoon eyes people

2137
01:37:08,070 --> 01:37:04,840
with floppy hats so I I find that

2138
01:37:09,040 --> 01:37:08,080
extremely intriguing now the funny thing

2139
01:37:10,899 --> 01:37:09,050
is here she brought

2140
01:37:12,700 --> 01:37:10,909
to me at the time and I said you know

2141
01:37:15,669 --> 01:37:12,710
what I see them too so maybe you and I

2142
01:37:18,160 --> 01:37:15,679
were just as crazy but later on we got

2143
01:37:20,049 --> 01:37:18,170
to visit shaver this was several years

2144
01:37:23,680 --> 01:37:20,059
before he died he was living with Dottie

2145
01:37:26,319 --> 01:37:23,690
shaver at little cottage in Summit

2146
01:37:27,459 --> 01:37:26,329
Arkansas Geneva let's go back in time

2147
01:37:30,910 --> 01:37:27,469
and tell us about it

2148
01:37:33,160 --> 01:37:30,920
well the little town he was in was this

2149
01:37:35,290 --> 01:37:33,170
nondescript as you can imagine I don't

2150
01:37:39,310 --> 01:37:35,300
even remember much in the way of trees

2151
01:37:43,180 --> 01:37:39,320
it was a desert little town and he had a

2152
01:37:45,819 --> 01:37:43,190
very small house and behind the house

2153
01:37:50,379 --> 01:37:45,829
there was his wife ceramic studio and

2154
01:37:53,500 --> 01:37:50,389
there was his art and rock studio and he

2155
01:37:56,379 --> 01:37:53,510
showed us he didn't do it for us but he

2156
01:37:59,950 --> 01:37:56,389
showed us the equipment of how he would

2157
01:38:02,790 --> 01:37:59,960
enlarge these rock paintings and I

2158
01:38:04,899 --> 01:38:02,800
suppose at the time he didn't have the

2159
01:38:07,450 --> 01:38:04,909
photographic equipment or couldn't

2160
01:38:10,240 --> 01:38:07,460
afford to make actual enlarged

2161
01:38:13,990 --> 01:38:10,250
photographic prints so he would use a

2162
01:38:18,580 --> 01:38:14,000
process of enlarging the photograph with

2163
01:38:22,180 --> 01:38:18,590
a regular and larger and enlarging a-

2164
01:38:25,000 --> 01:38:22,190
off the photograph then he would drift a

2165
01:38:27,459 --> 01:38:25,010
powder of marine glue dust he would

2166
01:38:29,709 --> 01:38:27,469
spray the a paper underneath a very

2167
01:38:32,649 --> 01:38:29,719
large piece of artist paper with

2168
01:38:36,609 --> 01:38:32,659
fixative and drift down a powder of

2169
01:38:39,910 --> 01:38:36,619
marine glue dust and he said that the

2170
01:38:42,910 --> 01:38:39,920
pressure of the light and dark light

2171
01:38:44,890 --> 01:38:42,920
beams which I find this even still very

2172
01:38:48,129 --> 01:38:44,900
hard to believe but he claimed that it

2173
01:38:51,970 --> 01:38:48,139
caused the dust to adhere in patterns

2174
01:38:55,089 --> 01:38:51,980
similar to that on the negative and then

2175
01:38:57,970 --> 01:38:55,099
he would go and manually by hand fill in

2176
01:39:01,030 --> 01:38:57,980
and paint over and to actually create

2177
01:39:02,979 --> 01:39:01,040
the picture but that way it gave him one

2178
01:39:06,189 --> 01:39:02,989
true to the originals and he created

2179
01:39:09,189 --> 01:39:06,199
some excellent artwork very detailed and

2180
01:39:12,399 --> 01:39:09,199
complex with pictures within pictures by

2181
01:39:15,129 --> 01:39:12,409
this method so even if it was just up

2182
01:39:17,350 --> 01:39:15,139
and aide to his inner processing it was

2183
01:39:19,450 --> 01:39:17,360
fascinating I would like to learn more

2184
01:39:21,910 --> 01:39:19,460
of the science to find out if it's

2185
01:39:22,839 --> 01:39:21,920
actually possible that this could have

2186
01:39:24,699 --> 01:39:22,849
worked the way he

2187
01:39:27,849 --> 01:39:24,709
it did what was your impression of

2188
01:39:30,729 --> 01:39:27,859
shaver he seemed like a very affable

2189
01:39:34,089 --> 01:39:30,739
very intelligent person if you met him

2190
01:39:35,770 --> 01:39:34,099
on the street or in any other context

2191
01:39:40,029 --> 01:39:35,780
you would not hesitate to take him at

2192
01:39:42,520 --> 01:39:40,039
face value and he was extremely nice to

2193
01:39:45,549 --> 01:39:42,530
us at the time being struggling young

2194
01:39:47,859 --> 01:39:45,559
writers and a lot of people don't have a

2195
01:39:50,290 --> 01:39:47,869
lot of time to give to young people in

2196
01:39:52,899 --> 01:39:50,300
their 20s who are just still in the

2197
01:39:55,779 --> 01:39:52,909
amateur phase but shaver was very

2198
01:39:59,589 --> 01:39:55,789
forthcoming and in unfortunately we

2199
01:40:02,109 --> 01:39:59,599
became kind of his voice I think he felt

2200
01:40:05,439 --> 01:40:02,119
for to the outside world and he began

2201
01:40:07,779 --> 01:40:05,449
writing us each a letter or two or

2202
01:40:10,299 --> 01:40:07,789
sometimes more every day and he would

2203
01:40:12,909 --> 01:40:10,309
enclose rock book photographs and and

2204
01:40:15,969 --> 01:40:12,919
these would be multi-page typewritten

2205
01:40:17,709 --> 01:40:15,979
letters and since we did have lives at

2206
01:40:19,779 --> 01:40:17,719
the time there was just no way that we

2207
01:40:22,089 --> 01:40:19,789
could possibly read and respond to those

2208
01:40:24,250 --> 01:40:22,099
even though we were with magazines

2209
01:40:26,649 --> 01:40:24,260
dealing with that kind of material so

2210
01:40:29,770 --> 01:40:26,659
it's quite tragic in a way that this was

2211
01:40:32,649 --> 01:40:29,780
going on and yeah we kind of let the

2212
01:40:34,810 --> 01:40:32,659
ball drop I feel well of course as you

2213
01:40:37,509 --> 01:40:34,820
and I moved and lived our separate lives

2214
01:40:41,049 --> 01:40:37,519
all the records are most of the records

2215
01:40:43,060 --> 01:40:41,059
from shaver they were lost or just set

2216
01:40:46,089 --> 01:40:43,070
aside I don't have much of anything

2217
01:40:48,879 --> 01:40:46,099
either maybe I have a handful of letters

2218
01:40:51,129 --> 01:40:48,889
but most of what actually was published

2219
01:40:53,109 --> 01:40:51,139
is the record that we have now and

2220
01:40:55,540 --> 01:40:53,119
caveat emptor magazine I mentioned this

2221
01:40:58,689 --> 01:40:55,550
to our listeners we had this magazine in

2222
01:41:03,219 --> 01:40:58,699
two incarnations from early 70s to the

2223
01:41:06,159 --> 01:41:03,229
mid 70s again from 1988 89 to the early

2224
01:41:07,569 --> 01:41:06,169
90s I am hoping that will reprint a lot

2225
01:41:09,459 --> 01:41:07,579
of this stuff especially the shaver

2226
01:41:12,069 --> 01:41:09,469
material because otherwise it's going to

2227
01:41:14,319 --> 01:41:12,079
be lost some of the material was also

2228
01:41:16,750 --> 01:41:14,329
published in Crossroads Porter Lee

2229
01:41:19,959 --> 01:41:16,760
another amateur zine that I was involved

2230
01:41:22,569 --> 01:41:19,969
with in the mid seventies and I do have

2231
01:41:26,109 --> 01:41:22,579
a know I think I probably sent those to

2232
01:41:28,479 --> 01:41:26,119
Richard Toronto earlier I had some of

2233
01:41:31,669 --> 01:41:28,489
his unpublished work but very little now

2234
01:41:34,399 --> 01:41:31,679
I have one slice of rock

2235
01:41:36,229 --> 01:41:34,409
and that may be all that I have of the

2236
01:41:38,089 --> 01:41:36,239
unpublished shaver it would be

2237
01:41:40,459 --> 01:41:38,099
interesting to take that rock and now

2238
01:41:43,160 --> 01:41:40,469
subjected to some analysis with modern

2239
01:41:45,169 --> 01:41:43,170
equipment it appears to have a sea

2240
01:41:47,689 --> 01:41:45,179
creature on it the sea creature is

2241
01:41:50,299 --> 01:41:47,699
pretty easy to see but the nature of the

2242
01:41:52,609 --> 01:41:50,309
rock looks quite ordinary but who knows

2243
01:41:54,410 --> 01:41:52,619
what's your feeling about Shaffer did

2244
01:41:57,140 --> 01:41:54,420
you believe he really had the experience

2245
01:41:59,600 --> 01:41:57,150
as he has well I believe he had some

2246
01:42:02,569 --> 01:41:59,610
kind of experience and certainly

2247
01:42:05,779 --> 01:42:02,579
channelers can come up with some

2248
01:42:08,209 --> 01:42:05,789
remarkable things his experiences do

2249
01:42:10,819 --> 01:42:08,219
remind me of those of channelers that I

2250
01:42:13,459 --> 01:42:10,829
have known who say that there are there

2251
01:42:16,219 --> 01:42:13,469
seemed to be levels of consciousness

2252
01:42:18,410 --> 01:42:16,229
where this stuff is being broadcast and

2253
01:42:21,290 --> 01:42:18,420
you can actually go to it and transcribe

2254
01:42:24,410 --> 01:42:21,300
it I used to know one channel er who was

2255
01:42:27,080 --> 01:42:24,420
fairly accurate and the Edgar Cayce

2256
01:42:29,330 --> 01:42:27,090
tradition who would read off things

2257
01:42:30,859 --> 01:42:29,340
literally do psychic readings and he

2258
01:42:33,169 --> 01:42:30,869
would mispronounce words sometimes

2259
01:42:36,799 --> 01:42:33,179
because he was pronouncing them as they

2260
01:42:39,069 --> 01:42:36,809
were spelled and E when he was back in

2261
01:42:41,929 --> 01:42:39,079
his normal state he would not remember

2262
01:42:44,120 --> 01:42:41,939
what he had said so his wife recorded

2263
01:42:47,060 --> 01:42:44,130
all these and this was actually a NASA

2264
01:42:50,779 --> 01:42:47,070
space scientist is this stuff happens

2265
01:42:53,660 --> 01:42:50,789
and what is behind it no one knows I

2266
01:42:56,419 --> 01:42:53,670
still tend to get into a certain realm

2267
01:42:59,779 --> 01:42:56,429
of government mind control I know that

2268
01:43:02,830 --> 01:42:59,789
shavers said even back in the 70s and it

2269
01:43:05,600 --> 01:43:02,840
proved to be correct that a lot of the

2270
01:43:09,410 --> 01:43:05,610
psychiatric patients in Russia were

2271
01:43:12,080 --> 01:43:09,420
actually political dissidents we know

2272
01:43:15,549 --> 01:43:12,090
then we found out that the CIA was doing

2273
01:43:17,929 --> 01:43:15,559
just incredibly complicated and bizarre

2274
01:43:21,199 --> 01:43:17,939
mind-control experiments on people once

2275
01:43:23,179 --> 01:43:21,209
they got their hands on LSD and now of

2276
01:43:27,169 --> 01:43:23,189
course they actually have machines that

2277
01:43:28,850 --> 01:43:27,179
can almost read your mind and feed stuff

2278
01:43:30,830 --> 01:43:28,860
to you and there are support groups

2279
01:43:33,080 --> 01:43:30,840
online for people who think that they're

2280
01:43:35,929 --> 01:43:33,090
being messed with this way so I'm

2281
01:43:38,719 --> 01:43:35,939
keeping an open mind I don't go there in

2282
01:43:41,509 --> 01:43:38,729
much detail because it leads to a very

2283
01:43:43,489 --> 01:43:41,519
poor state of mental health but that's

2284
01:43:44,120 --> 01:43:43,499
just one of the interesting things about

2285
01:43:45,529 --> 01:43:44,130
our world

2286
01:43:47,330 --> 01:43:45,539
richard toronto

2287
01:43:48,979 --> 01:43:47,340
let's talk about the final days of Ray

2288
01:43:49,609 --> 01:43:48,989
Palmer because as far as shaver is

2289
01:43:52,279 --> 01:43:49,619
concerned

2290
01:43:54,080 --> 01:43:52,289
he died what two three years after we

2291
01:43:56,930 --> 01:43:54,090
met him at his home Palmer

2292
01:43:58,839 --> 01:43:56,940
I guess the interest in what he did in

2293
01:44:01,279 --> 01:43:58,849
the circulation of his magazines

2294
01:44:03,439 --> 01:44:01,289
declined steadily over the years after

2295
01:44:05,870 --> 01:44:03,449
he moved to Amherst right yes that's

2296
01:44:08,600 --> 01:44:05,880
true I wanted to ask you something Jean

2297
01:44:11,509 --> 01:44:08,610
though sure uh during your interview

2298
01:44:14,899 --> 01:44:11,519
with Ray Palmer did you ask him about

2299
01:44:16,339 --> 01:44:14,909
the fact you know I think I did I have

2300
01:44:18,529 --> 01:44:16,349
to look at the text of it it was in the

2301
01:44:21,410 --> 01:44:18,539
first issue of caveat emptor magazine

2302
01:44:24,259 --> 01:44:21,420
and I actually have the transcribed

2303
01:44:25,850 --> 01:44:24,269
version I could look it up let's talk

2304
01:44:28,310 --> 01:44:25,860
about that because that's not something

2305
01:44:30,229 --> 01:44:28,320
that you really dealt with no and

2306
01:44:33,890 --> 01:44:30,239
there's a reason that I didn't deal with

2307
01:44:36,080 --> 01:44:33,900
it because it's so mind-numbing after

2308
01:44:38,359 --> 01:44:36,090
you get into it I mean he brings it up

2309
01:44:40,729 --> 01:44:38,369
over the years and his readers bring it

2310
01:44:43,129 --> 01:44:40,739
up to him and every time he talks about

2311
01:44:43,790 --> 01:44:43,139
it he gives a slightly different twist

2312
01:44:47,750 --> 01:44:43,800
to it

2313
01:44:51,020 --> 01:44:47,760
but I and just the other day I ran

2314
01:44:55,640 --> 01:44:51,030
across in an editorial in flying saucers

2315
01:44:58,609 --> 01:44:55,650
for fall 1973 a paragraph where it seems

2316
01:45:00,379 --> 01:44:58,619
to me he went into it more than at any

2317
01:45:02,540 --> 01:45:00,389
other point and I think it kind of ties

2318
01:45:04,729 --> 01:45:02,550
into what Geneva was just talking about

2319
01:45:06,979 --> 01:45:04,739
now let me just breakfast this about a

2320
01:45:08,870 --> 01:45:06,989
fact I mentioned it on the air in

2321
01:45:09,890 --> 01:45:08,880
connection with something else I'll tell

2322
01:45:12,140 --> 01:45:09,900
you what it is in a moment

2323
01:45:14,240 --> 01:45:12,150
Richard Toronto joins us the book is war

2324
01:45:15,709 --> 01:45:14,250
over Lemuria we have a few questions

2325
01:45:18,410 --> 01:45:15,719
from our listeners and Chris will ask

2326
01:45:21,379 --> 01:45:18,420
them in a few moments right now we have

2327
01:45:23,419 --> 01:45:21,389
Geneva Hagen joining us Richard Toronto

2328
01:45:28,170 --> 01:45:23,429
with Jean and Chris you're in the para

2329
01:45:34,270 --> 01:45:31,600
are you tired of searching for great

2330
01:45:38,950 --> 01:45:34,280
talk radio but the more important search

2331
01:45:41,530 --> 01:45:38,960
the overall we are the GCM radio network

2332
01:45:43,600 --> 01:45:41,540
hi this is Ted Anderson if you'd like to

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01:45:45,939 --> 01:45:43,610
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2338
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2344
01:46:09,430 --> 01:46:06,440
thanks again for listening to GC and

2345
01:46:11,050 --> 01:46:09,440
live.com again that's GC and live.com we

2346
01:46:13,150 --> 01:46:11,060
the people grow cotton wheat fabric

2347
01:46:14,770 --> 01:46:13,160
engraving can bed strips and fibers to

2348
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protect from counterfeit and carding to

2349
01:46:17,050 --> 01:46:16,520
a private bank having it led back at

2350
01:46:18,760 --> 01:46:17,060
interest

2351
01:46:20,439 --> 01:46:18,770
forcing taxes to surfaced at this

2352
01:46:22,060 --> 01:46:20,449
capitalism what was Jefferson correct

2353
01:46:23,709 --> 01:46:22,070
when stating a central bank issuing the

2354
01:46:24,820 --> 01:46:23,719
public currency is a greater menace to

2355
01:46:26,200 --> 01:46:24,830
the liberties of the people than a

2356
01:46:27,640 --> 01:46:26,210
standing army today understand I'm

2357
01:46:29,470 --> 01:46:27,650
placing a free silver dollar in a book

2358
01:46:33,040 --> 01:46:29,480
that explains our monetary system call

2359
01:46:36,100 --> 01:46:33,050
for your copy 806 86 to 237 it's time to

2360
01:46:41,790 --> 01:46:36,110
understand the system call 866 to 237

2361
01:46:47,439 --> 01:46:45,010
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2362
01:46:49,500 --> 01:46:47,449
experience a new lifestyle and try

2363
01:46:52,750 --> 01:46:49,510
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2364
01:46:54,700 --> 01:46:52,760
imagine no ashes stains nasty smell are

2365
01:46:56,650 --> 01:46:54,710
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2366
01:46:58,660 --> 01:46:56,660
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2367
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2368
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2369
01:47:05,170 --> 01:47:02,840
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2370
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2371
01:47:09,700 --> 01:47:07,160
taste from a wide variety of our new

2372
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2373
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2374
01:47:16,090 --> 01:47:14,330
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2375
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2376
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2377
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2378
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2380
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2381
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then called eight seven zero five one

2382
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eight four three zero seven that's eight

2383
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seven zero five one eight four three

2384
01:47:38,479 --> 01:47:34,410
zero seven or visit the sig comm spelled

2385
01:47:46,550 --> 01:47:38,489
le c IG comm Lisicki cigarettes for

2386
01:47:54,590 --> 01:47:50,250
welcome back into the para cast the gold

2387
01:48:02,730 --> 01:47:54,600
standard of paranormal radio and now

2388
01:48:04,830 --> 01:48:02,740
here's Jane Steinberg with Jean and

2389
01:48:07,320 --> 01:48:04,840
Chris in the para cast we have richard

2390
01:48:09,540 --> 01:48:07,330
toronto author of war over Lemuria

2391
01:48:12,240 --> 01:48:09,550
we have Geneva Hagan we have Jean

2392
01:48:13,950 --> 01:48:12,250
Steinberg we have Chris O'Brien and the

2393
01:48:16,380 --> 01:48:13,960
reason I mention this fact in connection

2394
01:48:19,770 --> 01:48:16,390
with another thing we had a couple of

2395
01:48:20,940 --> 01:48:19,780
abduction researchers on UFO reduction

2396
01:48:25,470 --> 01:48:20,950
research was just a couple of weeks ago

2397
01:48:29,640 --> 01:48:25,480
and what they said is they use some

2398
01:48:33,750 --> 01:48:29,650
hidden factor that's in abduction cases

2399
01:48:36,840 --> 01:48:33,760
that's never reported to determine

2400
01:48:39,450 --> 01:48:36,850
whether the thing is factual or not by

2401
01:48:41,580 --> 01:48:39,460
knowing this particular factoid they

2402
01:48:44,310 --> 01:48:41,590
could evaluate the cases to see if they

2403
01:48:46,920 --> 01:48:44,320
conform to this fact and if not you'd

2404
01:48:49,890 --> 01:48:46,930
suspect the reality so Palmer said I

2405
01:48:51,240 --> 01:48:49,900
guess this goes back to the 60s when he

2406
01:48:53,070 --> 01:48:51,250
first started talking about this fact

2407
01:48:56,280 --> 01:48:53,080
that he has this piece of information

2408
01:48:58,200 --> 01:48:56,290
and this piece of information if

2409
01:49:02,160 --> 01:48:58,210
something he uses by which to judge

2410
01:49:05,010 --> 01:49:02,170
whether a UFO sighting is real or not

2411
01:49:08,130 --> 01:49:05,020
tell us more Richard yeah but he of

2412
01:49:12,120 --> 01:49:08,140
course wouldn't really tell exactly what

2413
01:49:14,580 --> 01:49:12,130
this fact was but he said it would tell

2414
01:49:18,300 --> 01:49:14,590
him you know it didn't matter whether it

2415
01:49:20,010 --> 01:49:18,310
was a UFO report or whatever any bit of

2416
01:49:22,530 --> 01:49:20,020
information that somebody was giving him

2417
01:49:24,630 --> 01:49:22,540
but if it's okay I just read this one

2418
01:49:26,820 --> 01:49:24,640
paragraph that he wrote that sure really

2419
01:49:29,340 --> 01:49:26,830
gets into it so this is very Palmer

2420
01:49:31,470 --> 01:49:29,350
speaking he says first let's say that

2421
01:49:34,020 --> 01:49:31,480
there's an organization let's call it

2422
01:49:36,330 --> 01:49:34,030
that the organization because this is

2423
01:49:37,830 --> 01:49:36,340
the sort of group you don't name not

2424
01:49:39,540 --> 01:49:37,840
unless you want to wind up under the

2425
01:49:41,550 --> 01:49:39,550
wheels of a truck or with a bullet in

2426
01:49:43,920 --> 01:49:41,560
the back of your head the organization

2427
01:49:46,440 --> 01:49:43,930
is the real power behind the governments

2428
01:49:48,960 --> 01:49:46,450
of the world it is the same group we've

2429
01:49:51,210 --> 01:49:48,970
many times called a hidden or secret

2430
01:49:53,220 --> 01:49:51,220
government most people can't swallow

2431
01:49:54,930 --> 01:49:53,230
that because they insist on looking all

2432
01:49:57,510 --> 01:49:54,940
around the world for the people who

2433
01:49:59,550 --> 01:49:57,520
constitute the government the trouble is

2434
01:50:01,830 --> 01:49:59,560
one of them might be your neighbor

2435
01:50:04,470 --> 01:50:01,840
but oddly enough your neighbor would not

2436
01:50:07,470 --> 01:50:04,480
know he is a member of the organization

2437
01:50:10,110 --> 01:50:07,480
but you might be able to identify him by

2438
01:50:13,500 --> 01:50:10,120
his philosophy of life he would fit

2439
01:50:17,190 --> 01:50:13,510
neatly into the plan that's really my

2440
01:50:19,140 --> 01:50:17,200
fact I long ago discovered the plan once

2441
01:50:21,630 --> 01:50:19,150
you know what the plan is you can

2442
01:50:25,470 --> 01:50:21,640
determine the truth or untruth of what

2443
01:50:27,600 --> 01:50:25,480
anyone says to you so I think that part

2444
01:50:29,610 --> 01:50:27,610
of this organization and plan he's

2445
01:50:33,300 --> 01:50:29,620
talking about he's referring to this

2446
01:50:35,460 --> 01:50:33,310
place in the atmosphere in atheria as

2447
01:50:37,800 --> 01:50:35,470
it's called well you know what I'm gonna

2448
01:50:40,110 --> 01:50:37,810
read a paragraph or two from this

2449
01:50:42,900 --> 01:50:40,120
interview now we may have a recording of

2450
01:50:45,000 --> 01:50:42,910
this interview because we played the

2451
01:50:47,670 --> 01:50:45,010
entire interview on Bob's Donati's

2452
01:50:49,920 --> 01:50:47,680
coffee o'clock show and Bob's a friend

2453
01:50:52,110 --> 01:50:49,930
of the show of course he's also does our

2454
01:50:54,240 --> 01:50:52,120
bumpers he's kind of a staff announcer

2455
01:50:56,070 --> 01:50:54,250
for the show and if he can dig that up

2456
01:50:58,680 --> 01:50:56,080
we'll play it parts of it anyway

2457
01:51:01,740 --> 01:50:58,690
now here's what he's saying for example

2458
01:51:04,530 --> 01:51:01,750
about his fact to get back to this

2459
01:51:07,560 --> 01:51:04,540
particular thing I say what he is saying

2460
01:51:09,000 --> 01:51:07,570
is not realistically true they didn't

2461
01:51:10,980 --> 01:51:09,010
take a trip and that I couldn't

2462
01:51:12,870 --> 01:51:10,990
duplicate it this is talking about a

2463
01:51:15,390 --> 01:51:12,880
contact he I guess and I couldn't have

2464
01:51:17,670 --> 01:51:15,400
gone along with him but I want to call

2465
01:51:19,140 --> 01:51:17,680
your attention to what Scully originally

2466
01:51:21,330 --> 01:51:19,150
said in his book behind the flying

2467
01:51:23,700 --> 01:51:21,340
saucers in which he talked about this

2468
01:51:25,980 --> 01:51:23,710
mr. G and the fact that there was a

2469
01:51:28,980 --> 01:51:25,990
flying saucer at some Air Force Base and

2470
01:51:30,900 --> 01:51:28,990
that mr. G had seen the bodies of three

2471
01:51:33,300 --> 01:51:30,910
little man about three foot tall and

2472
01:51:36,510 --> 01:51:33,310
that they had a time system based on the

2473
01:51:38,370 --> 01:51:36,520
Venus calendar and so on watch's

2474
01:51:40,470 --> 01:51:38,380
chronometer z-- which registered on a

2475
01:51:42,900 --> 01:51:40,480
venous system of time rather than earth

2476
01:51:44,550 --> 01:51:42,910
and the one particular thing he put in

2477
01:51:47,430 --> 01:51:44,560
this book that maybe believe him I

2478
01:51:49,080 --> 01:51:47,440
disbelieve the rest of an entirety he

2479
01:51:51,600 --> 01:51:49,090
said that these little people were

2480
01:51:55,200 --> 01:51:51,610
dressed in clothing peculiar to the

2481
01:51:57,900 --> 01:51:55,210
Spaniards of 400 years ago and when he

2482
01:52:00,660 --> 01:51:57,910
said that I believed him now this will

2483
01:52:03,600 --> 01:52:00,670
give you an indication of how far out my

2484
01:52:06,600 --> 01:52:03,610
fact must be because and it involved

2485
01:52:08,820 --> 01:52:06,610
more than I can explain here but when

2486
01:52:11,520 --> 01:52:08,830
somebody comes to me with a story like

2487
01:52:13,350 --> 01:52:11,530
that which has this one little thing in

2488
01:52:15,900 --> 01:52:13,360
it which makes everybody

2489
01:52:18,150 --> 01:52:15,910
else disbelieve him that's the thing

2490
01:52:20,730 --> 01:52:18,160
that makes me believe it because if a

2491
01:52:23,400 --> 01:52:20,740
man is telling a lie he's not going to

2492
01:52:25,320 --> 01:52:23,410
put it in such a glaring and obvious

2493
01:52:26,160 --> 01:52:25,330
weakness and that was the end of the

2494
01:52:29,450 --> 01:52:26,170
interview by the way

2495
01:52:34,380 --> 01:52:29,460
Wow sounds like the trickster to me

2496
01:52:38,190 --> 01:52:34,390
those pictures from France could have

2497
01:52:41,460 --> 01:52:38,200
been similar to the dress of Spain 400

2498
01:52:43,080 --> 01:52:41,470
years ago oh I'd have to look them up

2499
01:52:45,060 --> 01:52:43,090
again on the internet and do some

2500
01:52:47,010 --> 01:52:45,070
comparison but just my general

2501
01:52:50,580 --> 01:52:47,020
impression with what I know of history

2502
01:52:52,710 --> 01:52:50,590
it wouldn't be not the case I have a bit

2503
01:52:55,650 --> 01:52:52,720
of interesting tie into what Geneva's

2504
01:52:59,370 --> 01:52:55,660
been talking about that piece of rock

2505
01:53:02,160 --> 01:52:59,380
that she saw the people in shaver worked

2506
01:53:04,260 --> 01:53:02,170
with the guy named WG bliss I mentioned

2507
01:53:07,770 --> 01:53:04,270
him in the book yes I know him or I knew

2508
01:53:09,750 --> 01:53:07,780
him oh you didn't okay he really feels

2509
01:53:12,300 --> 01:53:09,760
strongly about shavers discovery in the

2510
01:53:15,810 --> 01:53:12,310
rock books but he diverges at some point

2511
01:53:18,180 --> 01:53:15,820
and says that that there's an a

2512
01:53:22,200 --> 01:53:18,190
mechanism at work in the universe that

2513
01:53:24,750 --> 01:53:22,210
is constantly him printing images that

2514
01:53:28,260 --> 01:53:24,760
we can discern in just about everything

2515
01:53:30,870 --> 01:53:28,270
in growing trees at Rock and anything

2516
01:53:33,330 --> 01:53:30,880
that will take this I don't know what

2517
01:53:36,360 --> 01:53:33,340
you would call it a vibration sort of

2518
01:53:38,760 --> 01:53:36,370
like a stylus needle on an old-fashioned

2519
01:53:41,130 --> 01:53:38,770
phonograph when you're recording it he

2520
01:53:43,620 --> 01:53:41,140
says that these images he calls an

2521
01:53:44,340 --> 01:53:43,630
Universal imagery is in just about

2522
01:53:46,560 --> 01:53:44,350
everything

2523
01:53:49,710 --> 01:53:46,570
and now shaver did not like that shaver

2524
01:53:51,660 --> 01:53:49,720
didn't like it at all he said you know

2525
01:53:53,670 --> 01:53:51,670
it was exactly what he said it was that

2526
01:53:56,610 --> 01:53:53,680
these images were put there by this

2527
01:53:58,800 --> 01:53:56,620
ancient civilization but what was saying

2528
01:54:01,110 --> 01:53:58,810
that the images were just coming from

2529
01:54:03,930 --> 01:54:01,120
outer space from probably from time

2530
01:54:06,240 --> 01:54:03,940
immemorial from extraterrestrial

2531
01:54:08,010 --> 01:54:06,250
civilizations or whatever what we're

2532
01:54:09,750 --> 01:54:08,020
seeing or what she ever was seeing in

2533
01:54:12,660 --> 01:54:09,760
those rock books may not have been from

2534
01:54:16,200 --> 01:54:12,670
this planet at all I like to add also

2535
01:54:19,350 --> 01:54:16,210
that scientists now believe that the

2536
01:54:21,780 --> 01:54:19,360
brain perceives through symbols it's not

2537
01:54:24,120 --> 01:54:21,790
that we perceive symbols and they mean

2538
01:54:25,979 --> 01:54:24,130
something but symbols are actually our

2539
01:54:28,709 --> 01:54:25,989
means of perception

2540
01:54:31,050 --> 01:54:28,719
unless we have already created a symbol

2541
01:54:34,380 --> 01:54:31,060
for something we don't perceive it so

2542
01:54:37,620 --> 01:54:34,390
basically when we see something new for

2543
01:54:39,360 --> 01:54:37,630
the first few times we we can't encode a

2544
01:54:40,979 --> 01:54:39,370
memory of it because we don't have that

2545
01:54:43,800 --> 01:54:40,989
it's kind of like voice recognition

2546
01:54:46,170 --> 01:54:43,810
software so the brain takes the best

2547
01:54:48,510 --> 01:54:46,180
guess at what this being is likely to be

2548
01:54:50,700 --> 01:54:48,520
and presents this to us yeah and it's

2549
01:54:53,670 --> 01:54:50,710
interesting the farther back you go in

2550
01:54:55,890 --> 01:54:53,680
time to the most primitive times at any

2551
01:54:59,520 --> 01:54:55,900
point in the world you will find the

2552
01:55:01,290 --> 01:54:59,530
same symbol everyone in an isolated

2553
01:55:03,120 --> 01:55:01,300
little groups and tribes were drawing

2554
01:55:05,400 --> 01:55:03,130
the same symbols I find that very

2555
01:55:07,350 --> 01:55:05,410
interesting that shows some kind of

2556
01:55:07,860 --> 01:55:07,360
commonality early on there's nothing

2557
01:55:10,830 --> 01:55:07,870
else

2558
01:55:13,320 --> 01:55:10,840
yep that people were picking up on

2559
01:55:16,500 --> 01:55:13,330
something seeing the same things I mean

2560
01:55:19,620 --> 01:55:16,510
I've seen stones that were carved and

2561
01:55:22,229 --> 01:55:19,630
originally the people used stones way

2562
01:55:24,510 --> 01:55:22,239
before shaver and saw things in the

2563
01:55:26,670 --> 01:55:24,520
surfaces it was mostly the surfaces of

2564
01:55:30,540 --> 01:55:26,680
the stones Indians would collect them

2565
01:55:33,000 --> 01:55:30,550
shaver said he had this stone that was a

2566
01:55:36,510 --> 01:55:33,010
foot I think there was a picture of it

2567
01:55:39,870 --> 01:55:36,520
in the book and he was offered $20 for

2568
01:55:42,240 --> 01:55:39,880
that foot that he found by some Indian

2569
01:55:44,250 --> 01:55:42,250
woman who wanted it any ins prize those

2570
01:55:47,310 --> 01:55:44,260
particular things for some reason they

2571
01:55:48,360 --> 01:55:47,320
have significance this foot type stone

2572
01:55:50,610 --> 01:55:48,370
Wow

2573
01:55:53,520 --> 01:55:50,620
this is all into the realm of Carl Jung

2574
01:55:56,580 --> 01:55:53,530
and archetypal symbology that's

2575
01:55:59,610 --> 01:55:56,590
cross-cultural that we all share basic

2576
01:56:02,570 --> 01:55:59,620
primal symbols and and their inherent

2577
01:56:05,790 --> 01:56:02,580
and in all sort of the human

2578
01:56:07,890 --> 01:56:05,800
subconscious and and I I find this very

2579
01:56:10,740 --> 01:56:07,900
fascinating I think that that these are

2580
01:56:13,140 --> 01:56:10,750
areas especially in the realm of UFO

2581
01:56:16,140 --> 01:56:13,150
studies that aren't really addressed I

2582
01:56:17,820 --> 01:56:16,150
think adequately one of the interesting

2583
01:56:20,430 --> 01:56:17,830
things I'm getting from this Ray Palmer

2584
01:56:22,470 --> 01:56:20,440
hinting and Ray Palmer hinting around a

2585
01:56:25,260 --> 01:56:22,480
certain sort of litmus test of

2586
01:56:28,380 --> 01:56:25,270
information that he has I I can

2587
01:56:31,830 --> 01:56:28,390
appreciate that it sounds to me that

2588
01:56:34,229 --> 01:56:31,840
there's an element of absurdity that he

2589
01:56:36,150 --> 01:56:34,239
would identify that would almost as you

2590
01:56:37,920 --> 01:56:36,160
as you mentioned they gate the entire

2591
01:56:38,740 --> 01:56:37,930
experience yet in Palmer's mind it would

2592
01:56:41,290 --> 01:56:38,750
it would legit

2593
01:56:43,780 --> 01:56:41,300
legitimize it and actually validated in

2594
01:56:46,090 --> 01:56:43,790
Palmers mind and I find that very

2595
01:56:47,610 --> 01:56:46,100
interesting I think a lot of people that

2596
01:56:51,250 --> 01:56:47,620
have been out in the field and and

2597
01:56:53,860 --> 01:56:51,260
collected witness accounts can attest to

2598
01:56:56,980 --> 01:56:53,870
this that that oftentimes people are

2599
01:56:59,140 --> 01:56:56,990
very reluctant to give a specific detail

2600
01:57:00,670 --> 01:56:59,150
about a sighting event because they

2601
01:57:02,290 --> 01:57:00,680
would feel that it would in you know it

2602
01:57:03,670 --> 01:57:02,300
was just totally invalidate the rest of

2603
01:57:05,350 --> 01:57:03,680
the experience and make them sound like

2604
01:57:08,170 --> 01:57:05,360
they were crazy and I've had people come

2605
01:57:10,480 --> 01:57:08,180
to me later on and say you know there

2606
01:57:12,460 --> 01:57:10,490
was one little part of this event that I

2607
01:57:13,810 --> 01:57:12,470
experienced that I kind of didn't want

2608
01:57:15,400 --> 01:57:13,820
to tell you because I didn't want you to

2609
01:57:18,040 --> 01:57:15,410
think I was crazy I've heard that on

2610
01:57:19,450 --> 01:57:18,050
more than a few occasions so I think

2611
01:57:21,340 --> 01:57:19,460
this is a really interesting point that

2612
01:57:24,370 --> 01:57:21,350
you guys are bringing up will have a lot

2613
01:57:26,110 --> 01:57:24,380
more the book is war over Lemuria by

2614
01:57:28,450 --> 01:57:26,120
Richard Toronto we have Geneva Hagen

2615
01:57:37,000 --> 01:57:28,460
joining us with Jeanne and Chris you're

2616
01:57:44,580 --> 01:57:40,580
[Music]

2617
01:57:46,740 --> 01:57:44,590
is there a secret UFO agenda to strange

2618
01:57:49,169 --> 01:57:46,750
creatures from the darkest corners of

2619
01:57:51,979 --> 01:57:49,179
the mind roam the earth is there

2620
01:57:55,620 --> 01:57:51,989
evidence for mind control time travel or

2621
01:57:57,240 --> 01:57:55,630
devious government conspiracies find out

2622
01:57:59,850 --> 01:57:57,250
the inside scoop on the latest

2623
01:58:02,459 --> 01:57:59,860
conspiracies paranormal activity and

2624
01:58:05,399 --> 01:58:02,469
important phenomena when you subscribe

2625
01:58:08,250 --> 01:58:05,409
to Tim Beckley's conspiracy Turo it's

2626
01:58:10,800 --> 01:58:08,260
jam-packed with stories special book and

2627
01:58:13,110 --> 01:58:10,810
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2628
01:58:16,229 --> 01:58:13,120
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2629
01:58:19,979 --> 01:58:16,239
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2630
01:58:21,840 --> 01:58:19,989
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2631
01:58:25,979 --> 01:58:21,850
sent an email with your name and address

2632
01:58:31,290 --> 01:58:25,989
to Mister UFO at what TV met

2633
01:58:35,060 --> 01:58:31,300
that's mr. UFO at web TV dotnet find out

2634
01:58:38,470 --> 01:58:35,070
what they don't want you to know

2635
01:58:40,490 --> 01:58:38,480
[Music]

2636
01:58:41,690 --> 01:58:40,500
have you ever felt like the United

2637
01:58:43,940 --> 01:58:41,700
States government knows way too much

2638
01:58:45,740 --> 01:58:43,950
about your financial affairs I continue

2639
01:58:47,960 --> 01:58:45,750
to hear stories of our property seizures

2640
01:58:50,090 --> 01:58:47,970
frozen bank accounts confiscation of

2641
01:58:51,979 --> 01:58:50,100
stocks and bonds it makes me wonder if

2642
01:58:53,990 --> 01:58:51,989
the US citizen will ever again have the

2643
01:58:56,450 --> 01:58:54,000
right to life liberty and the pursuit of

2644
01:58:58,520 --> 01:58:56,460
happiness unfortunately with the drug

2645
01:59:01,340 --> 01:58:58,530
and money laundering Act the IRS Revenue

2646
01:59:02,690 --> 01:59:01,350
Ruling 60-45 of 1984 and the trading

2647
01:59:05,630 --> 01:59:02,700
with the enemy Act in Franklin D

2648
01:59:07,490 --> 01:59:05,640
Roosevelt executive order of 1933 some

2649
01:59:09,560 --> 01:59:07,500
precious metal holdings are subject to

2650
01:59:11,270 --> 01:59:09,570
government intervention for this reason

2651
01:59:13,010 --> 01:59:11,280
Midas Resources has prepared a report

2652
01:59:14,900 --> 01:59:13,020
explaining the boundaries of trading

2653
01:59:16,790 --> 01:59:14,910
precious metals privately whether if you

2654
01:59:18,590 --> 01:59:16,800
have any intention of trading with Midas

2655
01:59:20,120 --> 01:59:18,600
resources or not I have instructed my

2656
01:59:24,350 --> 01:59:20,130
representatives to give this report out

2657
01:59:26,960 --> 01:59:24,360
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2658
02:00:06,979 --> 01:59:26,970
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2659
02:00:09,500 --> 02:00:06,989
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2660
02:00:10,370 --> 02:00:09,510
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2661
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2662
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2663
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2664
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2667
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2668
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2670
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2673
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2676
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2679
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2681
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2683
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2684
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2685
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2686
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2688
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2690
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2691
02:01:44,830 --> 02:01:42,530
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2692
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2693
02:01:49,630 --> 02:01:48,110
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2694
02:01:52,990 --> 02:01:49,640
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2695
02:01:55,090 --> 02:01:53,000
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2696
02:01:58,270 --> 02:01:55,100
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2697
02:02:00,840 --> 02:01:58,280
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2698
02:02:04,959 --> 02:02:00,850
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2699
02:02:07,590 --> 02:02:04,969
now we post sitteth red at our forums

2700
02:02:10,090 --> 02:02:07,600
forum dr. Peric ascom in a place called

2701
02:02:12,430 --> 02:02:10,100
question Bank where listeners had a

2702
02:02:14,020 --> 02:02:12,440
chance to ask Geneva and Richard

2703
02:02:16,450 --> 02:02:14,030
different things about their

2704
02:02:18,370 --> 02:02:16,460
investigations Chris can you assemble

2705
02:02:21,610 --> 02:02:18,380
some questions let's go for it well this

2706
02:02:23,709 --> 02:02:21,620
comes from sentry a poster at forum dr.

2707
02:02:26,350 --> 02:02:23,719
Perik asked calm and he's by the way a

2708
02:02:29,320 --> 02:02:26,360
guest on next week's show recovering the

2709
02:02:31,030 --> 02:02:29,330
cash Landrum case oh that's right okay

2710
02:02:33,040 --> 02:02:31,040
well he says which of the underlying

2711
02:02:35,770 --> 02:02:33,050
themes of the shaver mystery seemed to

2712
02:02:38,530 --> 02:02:35,780
have been recycled for the dark vision

2713
02:02:40,570 --> 02:02:38,540
of ufology in the 80s with sinister

2714
02:02:42,370 --> 02:02:40,580
technologically advanced beings preying

2715
02:02:44,320 --> 02:02:42,380
on and toying with humans with

2716
02:02:46,750 --> 02:02:44,330
abductions tortures mutilations in

2717
02:02:49,120 --> 02:02:46,760
secret underground locations do you see

2718
02:02:51,670 --> 02:02:49,130
the similarity and could the belief in

2719
02:02:54,459 --> 02:02:51,680
the greys be just another manipulation

2720
02:02:56,590 --> 02:02:54,469
of us by the duros yeah you've seen a

2721
02:02:59,560 --> 02:02:56,600
thread there and that thread does exist

2722
02:03:03,040 --> 02:02:59,570
the DeRose are definitely working

2723
02:03:06,820 --> 02:03:03,050
against us but shaver himself wrote a

2724
02:03:10,479 --> 02:03:06,830
sort of landmark pamphlet booklet called

2725
02:03:14,110 --> 02:03:10,489
berman from space and that came out I

2726
02:03:16,720 --> 02:03:14,120
think in the early 70s and that detailed

2727
02:03:19,900 --> 02:03:16,730
how the aliens were definitely working

2728
02:03:22,600 --> 02:03:19,910
against us and I picked up on that

2729
02:03:26,140 --> 02:03:22,610
thread and interestingly enough in a

2730
02:03:29,170 --> 02:03:26,150
magazine called official UFO gene where

2731
02:03:31,450 --> 02:03:29,180
you had an interview with Jael and Hynek

2732
02:03:31,750 --> 02:03:31,460
in there yes that goes back a hundred

2733
02:03:36,010 --> 02:03:31,760
years

2734
02:03:39,100 --> 02:03:36,020
I know and you won't realize it but I

2735
02:03:40,240 --> 02:03:39,110
had a piece in that same magazine but

2736
02:03:42,760 --> 02:03:40,250
under a pen name

2737
02:03:45,040 --> 02:03:42,770
I was Zener Harrison quite and the

2738
02:03:48,040 --> 02:03:45,050
article was called everything you ever

2739
02:03:51,010 --> 02:03:48,050
wanted to believe about UFOs may not be

2740
02:03:54,880 --> 02:03:51,020
true and it goes into that how these

2741
02:03:56,950 --> 02:03:54,890
aliens are really out to get us and it

2742
02:04:00,280 --> 02:03:56,960
was sort of a sensationalist article but

2743
02:04:03,130 --> 02:04:00,290
it was based on shavers alien worldview

2744
02:04:04,900 --> 02:04:03,140
how it's not a benevolent thing at all

2745
02:04:07,510 --> 02:04:04,910
and I think that it could be an

2746
02:04:11,200 --> 02:04:07,520
outgrowth of the shaver mystery early

2747
02:04:12,399 --> 02:04:11,210
days which also spun off conspiracy

2748
02:04:15,159 --> 02:04:12,409
literature to

2749
02:04:17,589 --> 02:04:15,169
to a high degree they're out to get us

2750
02:04:21,040 --> 02:04:17,599
yeah they're out to get it creates more

2751
02:04:22,179 --> 02:04:21,050
questions you know just because you

2752
02:04:23,850 --> 02:04:22,189
think they're out to get you doesn't

2753
02:04:26,709 --> 02:04:23,860
mean they're not this is one from Tom

2754
02:04:30,969 --> 02:04:26,719
1961 who's a recent addition to the for

2755
02:04:32,229 --> 02:04:30,979
America's comm family and he has several

2756
02:04:34,689 --> 02:04:32,239
questions here I think we've answered

2757
02:04:36,459 --> 02:04:34,699
the first two whether we think whether

2758
02:04:38,679 --> 02:04:36,469
you think she ever believed his story it

2759
02:04:40,479 --> 02:04:38,689
sounds like he did he just wanted to

2760
02:04:43,060 --> 02:04:40,489
remind you that he was in a mental

2761
02:04:44,949 --> 02:04:43,070
institution but this is an interesting

2762
02:04:47,140 --> 02:04:44,959
question I think it's a valid one did

2763
02:04:49,089 --> 02:04:47,150
shaver ever try to write anything else

2764
02:04:51,759 --> 02:04:49,099
on any other subjects do we have any

2765
02:04:53,830 --> 02:04:51,769
indication that that he you know

2766
02:04:56,979 --> 02:04:53,840
obviously wrote a lot of letters

2767
02:04:58,390 --> 02:04:56,989
it was an amazing correspondent but did

2768
02:05:00,370 --> 02:04:58,400
he ever attempt to write anything else

2769
02:05:03,250 --> 02:05:00,380
other than the shaver mystery I mean

2770
02:05:05,350 --> 02:05:03,260
correct and the rocks of course yeah he

2771
02:05:08,080 --> 02:05:05,360
did he wrote some non shaver mystery

2772
02:05:11,560 --> 02:05:08,090
stories one was life Skeets Malloy has

2773
02:05:14,319 --> 02:05:11,570
two heads which I love that story it was

2774
02:05:17,589 --> 02:05:14,329
in a magazine called orbit in the early

2775
02:05:20,560 --> 02:05:17,599
50s and he wrote some science fiction

2776
02:05:23,560 --> 02:05:20,570
stories for a guy named long days Robert

2777
02:05:27,040 --> 02:05:23,570
long days and those were published away

2778
02:05:29,739 --> 02:05:27,050
from Davis so he did have a existence

2779
02:05:32,169 --> 02:05:29,749
away from the shaver mystery he wanted

2780
02:05:34,959 --> 02:05:32,179
to be a writer if Ray Palmer hadn't

2781
02:05:37,390 --> 02:05:34,969
created this old shaver mystery mystique

2782
02:05:40,179 --> 02:05:37,400
I think in some ways shaver would have

2783
02:05:43,689 --> 02:05:40,189
been happier because essentially Ray

2784
02:05:46,239 --> 02:05:43,699
Palmer forged that old shaver mystery

2785
02:05:48,699 --> 02:05:46,249
and and with shaver being one of the

2786
02:05:50,859 --> 02:05:48,709
central characters in it and then shaver

2787
02:05:53,020 --> 02:05:50,869
had no control over that really if you

2788
02:05:53,949 --> 02:05:53,030
think about it it was all created and

2789
02:05:56,709 --> 02:05:53,959
amazing story

2790
02:05:59,169 --> 02:05:56,719
what shaver really wanted and he wanted

2791
02:06:01,270 --> 02:05:59,179
this back in the 30s and even in the 20s

2792
02:06:04,330 --> 02:06:01,280
was to become a writer just like his

2793
02:06:06,489 --> 02:06:04,340
brother take and his mother they were a

2794
02:06:09,759 --> 02:06:06,499
family of writers and shaver wanted to

2795
02:06:12,549 --> 02:06:09,769
be a writer but once he was branded as

2796
02:06:15,759 --> 02:06:12,559
the guy who was the namesake of a shaver

2797
02:06:18,370 --> 02:06:15,769
mystery he was kind of dragged along by

2798
02:06:20,859 --> 02:06:18,380
this this image of the shaver mystery

2799
02:06:25,029 --> 02:06:20,869
and he he tried to break out of it but

2800
02:06:26,220 --> 02:06:25,039
like you say after the late 60s and his

2801
02:06:28,750 --> 02:06:26,230
banishment

2802
02:06:32,620 --> 02:06:28,760
Wisconsin after the freedom publishing

2803
02:06:34,780 --> 02:06:32,630
scandal he kind of went underground and

2804
02:06:36,730 --> 02:06:34,790
was low-key because he didn't want to

2805
02:06:37,600 --> 02:06:36,740
get arrested again went back to the

2806
02:06:40,150 --> 02:06:37,610
asylum

2807
02:06:43,890 --> 02:06:40,160
that was always a continuing fear he had

2808
02:06:47,200 --> 02:06:43,900
so in Summit he pretty much became a

2809
02:06:50,920 --> 02:06:47,210
correspondent and wrote for fanzines

2810
02:06:53,260 --> 02:06:50,930
like caveat emptor and others and I

2811
02:06:55,990 --> 02:06:53,270
didn't start my fanzine until after he

2812
02:06:58,390 --> 02:06:56,000
had died so I I was not among those

2813
02:07:00,700 --> 02:06:58,400
although I did have a shaver interview

2814
02:07:03,610 --> 02:07:00,710
that I reprinted that I did with him but

2815
02:07:05,200 --> 02:07:03,620
anywho I hope that answers that question

2816
02:07:07,690 --> 02:07:05,210
well you know that brings up an

2817
02:07:09,880 --> 02:07:07,700
interesting point in my mind when he

2818
02:07:13,420 --> 02:07:09,890
originally approached Ray Palmer and

2819
02:07:17,050 --> 02:07:13,430
Palmer hijacked his story embellished it

2820
02:07:20,290 --> 02:07:17,060
kind of put it in his own sort of became

2821
02:07:22,900 --> 02:07:20,300
more than an editor do you think that it

2822
02:07:24,640 --> 02:07:22,910
doesn't sound like shaver really had

2823
02:07:25,930 --> 02:07:24,650
resentments about that because it put

2824
02:07:27,310 --> 02:07:25,940
him on the map but do you think that

2825
02:07:29,650 --> 02:07:27,320
there was some sort of underlying

2826
02:07:31,720 --> 02:07:29,660
resentment that existed because of the

2827
02:07:34,210 --> 02:07:31,730
way that Palmer hijacked his story yeah

2828
02:07:38,200 --> 02:07:34,220
I think there was because once Palmer

2829
02:07:40,450 --> 02:07:38,210
started putting in his own ideas about

2830
02:07:42,460 --> 02:07:40,460
it especially the bit about you know

2831
02:07:44,200 --> 02:07:42,470
these are garrow's and Tarot's could be

2832
02:07:46,390 --> 02:07:44,210
on the astral plane or they could be an

2833
02:07:50,080 --> 02:07:46,400
atmosphere eeeh for all we know that

2834
02:07:52,420 --> 02:07:50,090
really got shaver upset oh here's a

2835
02:07:54,520 --> 02:07:52,430
question from solarian who's been a pose

2836
02:07:56,230 --> 02:07:54,530
threat forum dr. Perik asked calm for

2837
02:07:58,530 --> 02:07:56,240
about a year now and he's one of our

2838
02:08:02,080 --> 02:07:58,540
active members always ask good questions

2839
02:08:05,440 --> 02:08:02,090
this is a good one too I kind of think

2840
02:08:06,880 --> 02:08:05,450
any of the three of you can really look

2841
02:08:09,010 --> 02:08:06,890
at this question and kind of scratch

2842
02:08:11,410 --> 02:08:09,020
your head what's your opinion on why the

2843
02:08:13,900 --> 02:08:11,420
fantasy genre is gained more popularity

2844
02:08:15,490 --> 02:08:13,910
than science fiction in the past 13

2845
02:08:17,110 --> 02:08:15,500
years and that's a good question I've

2846
02:08:20,590 --> 02:08:17,120
been wondering that myself with all the

2847
02:08:24,040 --> 02:08:20,600
vampires and and werewolves and you know

2848
02:08:25,930 --> 02:08:24,050
this resurgence of fantasy stuff is this

2849
02:08:29,170 --> 02:08:25,940
because of video games is this because

2850
02:08:32,220 --> 02:08:29,180
of Japanese cartooning what do you guys

2851
02:08:35,980 --> 02:08:32,230
think I think it's sheer laziness

2852
02:08:38,410 --> 02:08:35,990
science fiction today because of the

2853
02:08:39,220 --> 02:08:38,420
level of our technology requires a lot

2854
02:08:42,820 --> 02:08:39,230
of knowledge

2855
02:08:45,430 --> 02:08:42,830
science whereas fantasy you recycle the

2856
02:08:48,040 --> 02:08:45,440
same old stories I called it bulk

2857
02:08:51,600 --> 02:08:48,050
fiction and everything now is published

2858
02:08:54,070 --> 02:08:51,610
in sets of three or five or more and

2859
02:08:56,770 --> 02:08:54,080
usually the writer shows signs of

2860
02:08:58,750 --> 02:08:56,780
burning out after by um two or three but

2861
02:09:01,240 --> 02:08:58,760
they still have publishers contracts so

2862
02:09:04,390 --> 02:09:01,250
on it goes and you could take it and

2863
02:09:07,090 --> 02:09:04,400
place it in any period of history and a

2864
02:09:09,850 --> 02:09:07,100
lot of them are set in the past and it

2865
02:09:12,340 --> 02:09:09,860
would read just as well yeah it's I

2866
02:09:14,530 --> 02:09:12,350
think it's kind of a form of cheating

2867
02:09:17,500 --> 02:09:14,540
it's not really related to science

2868
02:09:20,890 --> 02:09:17,510
fiction even do you think it partly is

2869
02:09:24,000 --> 02:09:20,900
due also to the way the publishing

2870
02:09:28,660 --> 02:09:24,010
industry is changed in the last 15 years

2871
02:09:32,770 --> 02:09:28,670
they really have condensed down to just

2872
02:09:34,990 --> 02:09:32,780
a handful of major publishers they love

2873
02:09:37,180 --> 02:09:35,000
to do these series and continue the

2874
02:09:41,020 --> 02:09:37,190
Mahon you know they brand things a

2875
02:09:43,030 --> 02:09:41,030
license things like Iron Man and you

2876
02:09:45,670 --> 02:09:43,040
know they're going into the DC Comics

2877
02:09:47,650 --> 02:09:45,680
constantly for movies and I think that

2878
02:09:50,620 --> 02:09:47,660
it's partly due to the publishing

2879
02:09:52,900 --> 02:09:50,630
industry too that once they get

2880
02:09:55,900 --> 02:09:52,910
something they feel is a winner like the

2881
02:09:59,320 --> 02:09:55,910
Twilight series of vampires suddenly

2882
02:10:01,660 --> 02:09:59,330
vampires became very popular as is

2883
02:10:03,820 --> 02:10:01,670
werewolves now mm-hmm

2884
02:10:05,979 --> 02:10:03,830
and of course True Blood which is also

2885
02:10:08,050 --> 02:10:05,989
based on a series of novels although I

2886
02:10:10,090 --> 02:10:08,060
think the author is planning to stop

2887
02:10:13,060 --> 02:10:10,100
writing those but right now the show

2888
02:10:15,160 --> 02:10:13,070
remains very very popular on TV we have

2889
02:10:16,060 --> 02:10:15,170
richard toronto the book is war over

2890
02:10:18,010 --> 02:10:16,070
Lemuria

2891
02:10:28,689 --> 02:10:18,020
we have Geneva Hagen with Jeanne and

2892
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the GC and radio network providing the

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2918
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2919
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2920
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2994
02:14:50,040 --> 02:14:45,979
Phillips listening to the parrot cast

2995
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and it's as good as it gets believe me

2996
02:14:58,599 --> 02:14:55,659
[Music]

2997
02:15:00,790 --> 02:14:58,609
with gene and Chris we have Geneva Hagen

2998
02:15:02,979 --> 02:15:00,800
joining us Richard Toronto author of war

2999
02:15:05,259 --> 02:15:02,989
over Lemuria we're looking at the life

3000
02:15:08,079 --> 02:15:05,269
and times of Richard shaver and Ray

3001
02:15:10,329 --> 02:15:08,089
Palmer and their amazing influence to

3002
02:15:13,389 --> 02:15:10,339
the world of science fiction which as we

3003
02:15:16,389 --> 02:15:13,399
said before results in Star Wars and

3004
02:15:18,669 --> 02:15:16,399
Star Trek and all that kind of stuff

3005
02:15:21,520 --> 02:15:18,679
Chris some more questions this one comes

3006
02:15:23,770 --> 02:15:21,530
from JT who's a longtime poster he's

3007
02:15:27,399 --> 02:15:23,780
been posting at forum dr. Peric ascom

3008
02:15:29,339 --> 02:15:27,409
for Jesus almost five years now here's a

3009
02:15:32,020 --> 02:15:29,349
couple of questions so the first one is

3010
02:15:35,079 --> 02:15:32,030
you've mentioned the shaver paintings

3011
02:15:37,629 --> 02:15:35,089
dude know if any of these still exist I

3012
02:15:39,069 --> 02:15:37,639
mean are they collectible items and he

3013
02:15:41,290 --> 02:15:39,079
says I'd really hope you will publish a

3014
02:15:43,359 --> 02:15:41,300
glorious toff coffee table book of these

3015
02:15:46,329 --> 02:15:43,369
existing slides of us otherwise lost art

3016
02:15:48,939 --> 02:15:46,339
they do exist although a lot of them

3017
02:15:52,199 --> 02:15:48,949
were lost and destroyed because shaver

3018
02:15:56,229 --> 02:15:52,209
being as poor as he was didn't have the

3019
02:15:58,779 --> 02:15:56,239
finances to buy canvases on stretched on

3020
02:16:01,179 --> 02:15:58,789
frames and things like that so it would

3021
02:16:04,119 --> 02:16:01,189
paint them on what he had with his

3022
02:16:06,790 --> 02:16:04,129
cardboard boxes unfortunately one of the

3023
02:16:10,540 --> 02:16:06,800
most aesthetic type papers to paint on

3024
02:16:13,359 --> 02:16:10,550
and he sometimes painted on why would I

3025
02:16:16,899 --> 02:16:13,369
have the attack of the eight back

3026
02:16:19,689 --> 02:16:16,909
painting that he had painted on plywood

3027
02:16:22,599 --> 02:16:19,699
and that has held up although the

3028
02:16:26,290 --> 02:16:22,609
materials that he used the Geneva

3029
02:16:28,569 --> 02:16:26,300
described and by the way her description

3030
02:16:31,959 --> 02:16:28,579
of how he painted was exactly the same

3031
02:16:34,299 --> 02:16:31,969
description I got from tal Levesque who

3032
02:16:37,330 --> 02:16:34,309
also visited shaver and shaver

3033
02:16:39,910 --> 02:16:37,340
demonstrated how he did his paintings

3034
02:16:43,450 --> 02:16:39,920
and thus assisting in the swirling and

3035
02:16:46,330 --> 02:16:43,460
all that it was identical so he he was

3036
02:16:49,980 --> 02:16:46,340
repeating that method although taught

3037
02:16:54,000 --> 02:16:49,990
that that he didn't necessarily even

3038
02:16:57,720 --> 02:16:54,010
to project a rocks life image onto the

3039
02:17:00,270 --> 02:16:57,730
canvas that he could just sort of wing

3040
02:17:03,150 --> 02:17:00,280
it on his own and he would sort of call

3041
02:17:06,480 --> 02:17:03,160
up the REA people you know like the Tea

3042
02:17:09,480 --> 02:17:06,490
Rose and have them sort of impress an

3043
02:17:13,170 --> 02:17:09,490
image too so he did both he did the

3044
02:17:15,750 --> 02:17:13,180
projected image and sort of winged it

3045
02:17:19,920 --> 02:17:15,760
with this sort of psychic painting to

3046
02:17:22,620 --> 02:17:19,930
the paintings do still exist some do one

3047
02:17:24,540 --> 02:17:22,630
New York collector bought up a bunch of

3048
02:17:28,560 --> 02:17:24,550
them thinking he was going to make a

3049
02:17:30,900 --> 02:17:28,570
killing and then he ended up selling the

3050
02:17:33,780 --> 02:17:30,910
collection not to a museum but to a

3051
02:17:36,630 --> 02:17:33,790
private collector and I'm not sure where

3052
02:17:40,710 --> 02:17:36,640
all those paintings went but I still

3053
02:17:44,070 --> 02:17:40,720
have some and I hope to put together

3054
02:17:48,990 --> 02:17:44,080
that coffee table book because while I

3055
02:17:52,110 --> 02:17:49,000
was researching my second book I came

3056
02:17:54,990 --> 02:17:52,120
across an envelope in my files from

3057
02:17:57,360 --> 02:17:55,000
shaver and and may have been from Dottie

3058
02:17:59,700 --> 02:17:57,370
because after he died she just kept

3059
02:18:01,710 --> 02:17:59,710
sending me stuff that she was either

3060
02:18:04,260 --> 02:18:01,720
gonna throw out or she would send to me

3061
02:18:06,660 --> 02:18:04,270
he destroyed a lot of material from his

3062
02:18:09,720 --> 02:18:06,670
file just because she was so despondent

3063
02:18:12,750 --> 02:18:09,730
after he died but one thing I found was

3064
02:18:15,270 --> 02:18:12,760
an envelope full of color slides the

3065
02:18:18,930 --> 02:18:15,280
shaver had taken of his different

3066
02:18:20,250 --> 02:18:18,940
paintings probably to promote himself to

3067
02:18:23,070 --> 02:18:20,260
a gallery or something

3068
02:18:25,230 --> 02:18:23,080
so with that does it basis I think I

3069
02:18:28,620 --> 02:18:25,240
could put together some kind of a nice

3070
02:18:30,720 --> 02:18:28,630
coffee table book but that maybe

3071
02:18:32,550 --> 02:18:30,730
sometime in the future it would be

3072
02:18:35,130 --> 02:18:32,560
interesting I've seen reproductions of

3073
02:18:37,110 --> 02:18:35,140
some of his artwork and he was quite a

3074
02:18:39,030 --> 02:18:37,120
visual guy no question about it

3075
02:18:42,780 --> 02:18:39,040
he did have so I think some natural

3076
02:18:44,970 --> 02:18:42,790
talent this is an another question from

3077
02:18:46,830 --> 02:18:44,980
sentry and he kind of puts it out there

3078
02:18:49,860 --> 02:18:46,840
for everyone and he starts it out with a

3079
02:18:53,970 --> 02:18:49,870
quote from Captain Edward J ruppelt from

3080
02:18:56,760 --> 02:18:53,980
true magazine 1954 and the quote is

3081
02:18:59,940 --> 02:18:56,770
obscured by the hoax is distorted by the

3082
02:19:03,180 --> 02:18:59,950
literary charlatan to Hale every vagrant

3083
02:19:03,959 --> 02:19:03,190
light as a verified spaceship the case

3084
02:19:05,820 --> 02:19:03,969
of the flying

3085
02:19:07,889 --> 02:19:05,830
Saucer rests on the inexplicable

3086
02:19:12,389 --> 02:19:07,899
instances that have cropped up year

3087
02:19:14,669 --> 02:19:12,399
after year since 1947 and sentry says

3088
02:19:22,250 --> 02:19:14,679
literary charlatans any educated guesses

3089
02:19:30,660 --> 02:19:26,400
that's for sure yeah moving right along

3090
02:19:34,679 --> 02:19:30,670
this is another question from our good

3091
02:19:36,290 --> 02:19:34,689
friend JT I'm just reading the

3092
02:19:38,519 --> 02:19:36,300
engagingly written but visually

3093
02:19:40,860 --> 02:19:38,529
pedestrian Fred natus book on the

3094
02:19:42,690 --> 02:19:40,870
subject besides having known shaver and

3095
02:19:45,209 --> 02:19:42,700
spending decades studying discussing his

3096
02:19:48,030 --> 02:19:45,219
works what other reasons are there to

3097
02:19:51,650 --> 02:19:48,040
pick your book over his well I haven't

3098
02:19:54,450 --> 02:19:51,660
read his book so I can't really say

3099
02:19:56,580 --> 02:19:54,460
although from what I've been hearing and

3100
02:19:59,250 --> 02:19:56,590
in the reviews that have been coming up

3101
02:20:02,160 --> 02:19:59,260
people are saying that mine is much more

3102
02:20:05,340 --> 02:20:02,170
extensively researched than the natives

3103
02:20:08,370 --> 02:20:05,350
which make some sense because I took six

3104
02:20:11,429 --> 02:20:08,380
years to write for me to researched and

3105
02:20:14,639 --> 02:20:11,439
write the book war over Lemuria and I

3106
02:20:17,010 --> 02:20:14,649
became aware that Fred natus was

3107
02:20:19,349 --> 02:20:17,020
starting to write his book sometime last

3108
02:20:22,170 --> 02:20:19,359
year so I took him about a year to put

3109
02:20:26,040 --> 02:20:22,180
together his material but I also know

3110
02:20:29,429 --> 02:20:26,050
that he did not have access to the same

3111
02:20:32,340 --> 02:20:29,439
people that I had access to two of which

3112
02:20:34,920 --> 02:20:32,350
was Ray Palmer's daughter Linda Jane

3113
02:20:38,130 --> 02:20:34,930
Palmer and Richard shavers daughter

3114
02:20:41,280 --> 02:20:38,140
Evelyn Bryant

3115
02:20:44,490 --> 02:20:41,290
so I've got it from the horse's mouth so

3116
02:20:48,750 --> 02:20:44,500
to speak there why they ask you about

3117
02:20:51,269 --> 02:20:48,760
that with regard to shaver and Palmer

3118
02:20:53,969 --> 02:20:51,279
and their descendants any budding

3119
02:20:56,429 --> 02:20:53,979
writers among them or and that did that

3120
02:21:00,780 --> 02:20:56,439
all end with the deaths of shaver and

3121
02:21:05,160 --> 02:21:00,790
Palmer I'm afraid it did Ray Palmer's

3122
02:21:07,410 --> 02:21:05,170
son Ray B Palmer says that the writing

3123
02:21:10,139 --> 02:21:07,420
bug didn't bite him and he has a very

3124
02:21:11,700 --> 02:21:10,149
difficult time writing which is why he

3125
02:21:13,500 --> 02:21:11,710
never came out with the book on his

3126
02:21:16,019 --> 02:21:13,510
father it kind of surprised me that he

3127
02:21:17,300 --> 02:21:16,029
still hasn't written anything that it

3128
02:21:19,700 --> 02:21:17,310
took

3129
02:21:24,439 --> 02:21:19,710
all these years for me and and Fred

3130
02:21:27,080 --> 02:21:24,449
natives do to do it and as far as shaver

3131
02:21:29,660 --> 02:21:27,090
his daughter is not interested in

3132
02:21:34,250 --> 02:21:29,670
writing at all she became though an art

3133
02:21:37,790 --> 02:21:34,260
teacher so she was following in her

3134
02:21:40,250 --> 02:21:37,800
dad's footsteps as an artist so there

3135
02:21:43,280 --> 02:21:40,260
you go we had Raymond B Palmer on the

3136
02:21:45,819 --> 02:21:43,290
parent cast some weeks back and was

3137
02:21:47,510 --> 02:21:45,829
fascinating to get his remembrances of

3138
02:21:51,920 --> 02:21:47,520
his dad

3139
02:21:55,609 --> 02:21:51,930
yeah I was I was really pleased that I

3140
02:21:58,340 --> 02:21:55,619
got to meet Linda Jane Palmer she came

3141
02:22:01,609 --> 02:21:58,350
out here to California a couple of years

3142
02:22:04,819 --> 02:22:01,619
ago with her husband Bob and we hung out

3143
02:22:07,490 --> 02:22:04,829
for a couple of days and talked a lot

3144
02:22:10,849 --> 02:22:07,500
about her dad and that's when she gave

3145
02:22:15,559 --> 02:22:10,859
me permission to reprint her dad's stuff

3146
02:22:18,819 --> 02:22:15,569
for my book now Palmer had actually

3147
02:22:21,380 --> 02:22:18,829
planned to write his own autobiography

3148
02:22:23,090 --> 02:22:21,390
but somehow it never came to pass where

3149
02:22:26,929 --> 02:22:23,100
it came to pass but not quite in the way

3150
02:22:28,910 --> 02:22:26,939
than anyone expected well if you call 36

3151
02:22:31,790 --> 02:22:28,920
pages in the secret world an

3152
02:22:35,479 --> 02:22:31,800
autobiography that that's it but he

3153
02:22:38,300 --> 02:22:35,489
didn't really cover much at all of his

3154
02:22:41,120 --> 02:22:38,310
life you know and he anguished over that

3155
02:22:43,399 --> 02:22:41,130
book for years it took him something

3156
02:22:48,019 --> 02:22:43,409
like four or five years just to pin

3157
02:22:51,769 --> 02:22:48,029
those 36 pages which is why he had the

3158
02:22:53,139 --> 02:22:51,779
piggyback shavers rock book work onto

3159
02:22:55,639 --> 02:22:53,149
that book

3160
02:22:57,920 --> 02:22:55,649
this is you know quite interesting

3161
02:23:01,130 --> 02:22:57,930
because we have to look at Palmer who

3162
02:23:02,899 --> 02:23:01,140
was the quintessential hack writer he

3163
02:23:04,429 --> 02:23:02,909
could churn out tens of thousands of

3164
02:23:08,030 --> 02:23:04,439
words on a moment's notice he wrote

3165
02:23:10,370 --> 02:23:08,040
dozens and dozens of short stories and

3166
02:23:12,889 --> 02:23:10,380
novels length books and magazine

3167
02:23:16,280 --> 02:23:12,899
articles over the years he edited all

3168
02:23:18,620 --> 02:23:16,290
these publications he ghostwrote stuff

3169
02:23:21,559 --> 02:23:18,630
for people he answered all those letters

3170
02:23:26,240 --> 02:23:21,569
in his magazines but he couldn't finish

3171
02:23:29,899 --> 02:23:26,250
his autobiography why because he this

3172
02:23:31,041 --> 02:23:29,909
goes back to his boyhood you know he he

3173
02:23:34,791 --> 02:23:31,051
just couldn't

3174
02:23:37,791 --> 02:23:34,801
about his personal life he had too many

3175
02:23:39,921 --> 02:23:37,801
secrets in his life like nobody knew

3176
02:23:42,470 --> 02:23:39,931
that he had been married before he

3177
02:23:44,691 --> 02:23:42,480
married Marjorie nobody talked about

3178
02:23:45,801 --> 02:23:44,701
that he didn't write about it anywhere

3179
02:23:48,350 --> 02:23:45,811
even though he would write about

3180
02:23:50,631 --> 02:23:48,360
everybody else's wedding and engagement

3181
02:23:53,631 --> 02:23:50,641
and amazing stories he never said a word

3182
02:23:55,671 --> 02:23:53,641
about that it was only because homers

3183
02:23:57,591 --> 02:23:55,681
daughter that I found out and then I did

3184
02:24:00,741 --> 02:23:57,601
a little research found his marriage

3185
02:24:03,560 --> 02:24:00,751
certificate yes he was married as you

3186
02:24:06,321 --> 02:24:03,570
can see getting the truth about ray

3187
02:24:08,810 --> 02:24:06,331
Palmer's background is in itself a job

3188
02:24:11,451 --> 02:24:08,820
and a half and then some because Ray

3189
02:24:13,671 --> 02:24:11,461
wasn't always forthcoming about it we'll

3190
02:24:16,011 --> 02:24:13,681
go into more about the things we didn't

3191
02:24:17,961 --> 02:24:16,021
know about ray Palmer's life and Richard

3192
02:24:20,691 --> 02:24:17,971
shaver and more the book is war over

3193
02:24:22,911 --> 02:24:20,701
Lemuria with Richard Toronto with Jeanne

3194
02:24:31,161 --> 02:24:22,921
and Chris and Geneva Hagen you're in the

3195
02:24:33,831 --> 02:24:31,171
very cast America's number one source

3196
02:24:34,781 --> 02:24:33,841
for independent talk radio for over a

3197
02:24:39,890 --> 02:24:34,791
decade

3198
02:24:42,321 --> 02:24:39,900
we are the gcn radio network if you want

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right it's Jason Lewis team.com hi this

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is nuclear physicist or tourists and

3304
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Friedman you are listening to the pair

3305
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against the gold standard a paranormal

3306
02:29:03,801 --> 02:29:01,980
radio it's our final segment of the

3307
02:29:06,440 --> 02:29:03,811
power cast with gene and Chris we have

3308
02:29:08,390 --> 02:29:06,450
Geneva Hagan joining us on the panel

3309
02:29:11,511 --> 02:29:08,400
richard toronto the book is war over

3310
02:29:14,600 --> 02:29:11,521
Lemuria we're talking about the final

3311
02:29:16,310 --> 02:29:14,610
days of Ray Palmer and I gather here

3312
02:29:18,220 --> 02:29:16,320
Richard that he had written is so much

3313
02:29:21,170 --> 02:29:18,230
fictional stuff about his life that

3314
02:29:23,360 --> 02:29:21,180
actually telling the truth he couldn't

3315
02:29:24,980 --> 02:29:23,370
handle the truth could he know he

3316
02:29:27,970 --> 02:29:24,990
couldn't handle the truth

3317
02:29:32,091 --> 02:29:27,980
he believed in keeping secrets as

3318
02:29:34,130 --> 02:29:32,101
something sort of beneficial and he

3319
02:29:37,011 --> 02:29:34,140
often would say that if you go through a

3320
02:29:39,410 --> 02:29:37,021
lot of his writings in his editorials I

3321
02:29:42,170 --> 02:29:39,420
mean his whole life story is really in

3322
02:29:44,660 --> 02:29:42,180
all those editorials in all of those

3323
02:29:47,301 --> 02:29:44,670
magazines and there's a ton of material

3324
02:29:49,130 --> 02:29:47,311
in there but it takes forever to go

3325
02:29:51,650 --> 02:29:49,140
through it all and you might get a

3326
02:29:53,780 --> 02:29:51,660
little gem here and a gym there but

3327
02:29:56,570 --> 02:29:53,790
you'll be spending hours reading through

3328
02:29:58,940 --> 02:29:56,580
all this stuff in days but he often

3329
02:30:02,630 --> 02:29:58,950
would say don't believe what I'm telling

3330
02:30:05,450 --> 02:30:02,640
you I tend to lie and I lie all the time

3331
02:30:07,160 --> 02:30:05,460
and you know he'll drop that in and then

3332
02:30:08,540 --> 02:30:07,170
move right on and tell you about

3333
02:30:10,370 --> 02:30:08,550
something that you're supposed to

3334
02:30:11,540 --> 02:30:10,380
believe in you know and you would say

3335
02:30:14,570 --> 02:30:11,550
that about his auto pie

3336
02:30:17,210 --> 02:30:14,580
rafi and/or a magazine he was constantly

3337
02:30:19,309 --> 02:30:17,220
telling his readers you know I've got to

3338
02:30:20,990 --> 02:30:19,319
write the truth but you know what is the

3339
02:30:23,059 --> 02:30:21,000
truth I don't know what's true right now

3340
02:30:25,429 --> 02:30:23,069
is not going to be true for me tomorrow

3341
02:30:27,650 --> 02:30:25,439
and he was like like I pointed out in

3342
02:30:30,500 --> 02:30:27,660
the book he's like an octopus that just

3343
02:30:33,770 --> 02:30:30,510
disappears in a cloud of black ink and

3344
02:30:35,030 --> 02:30:33,780
the ink words his words it's almost as

3345
02:30:38,540 --> 02:30:35,040
if he didn't want people to know the

3346
02:30:40,160 --> 02:30:38,550
truth didn't want to know him for some

3347
02:30:42,950 --> 02:30:40,170
reason and people would remark about

3348
02:30:44,630 --> 02:30:42,960
that that it was very difficult to get

3349
02:30:46,490 --> 02:30:44,640
to know who he was

3350
02:30:48,110 --> 02:30:46,500
but I think that because of his

3351
02:30:50,540 --> 02:30:48,120
background and because of shaver's

3352
02:30:53,900 --> 02:30:50,550
background both of them being more or

3353
02:30:56,389 --> 02:30:53,910
less ostracized in their own way that's

3354
02:30:58,520 --> 02:30:56,399
why they hit it off and that's why they

3355
02:31:01,400 --> 02:30:58,530
sort of hooked up with one another as a

3356
02:31:03,950 --> 02:31:01,410
team all those years even though shaver

3357
02:31:05,900 --> 02:31:03,960
was a reluctant member most of the time

3358
02:31:07,309 --> 02:31:05,910
there were birds of a feather in some

3359
02:31:09,230 --> 02:31:07,319
ways oh yeah

3360
02:31:12,679 --> 02:31:09,240
they were definitely brothers under the

3361
02:31:15,710 --> 02:31:12,689
skin that's what I described a man and

3362
02:31:18,530 --> 02:31:15,720
that's what Ray Palmer said dotty told

3363
02:31:22,219 --> 02:31:18,540
me that when when she called Ray Palmer

3364
02:31:24,740 --> 02:31:22,229
to tell him that dick shaver had died he

3365
02:31:27,139 --> 02:31:24,750
said it felt as though he had just lost

3366
02:31:29,809 --> 02:31:27,149
his brother even though there were like

3367
02:31:32,389 --> 02:31:29,819
family members feeling a lot they were

3368
02:31:36,320 --> 02:31:32,399
always buting that's right but it was

3369
02:31:39,650 --> 02:31:36,330
that underlying quality that you know

3370
02:31:42,620 --> 02:31:39,660
they were both reviled by everyone they

3371
02:31:45,440 --> 02:31:42,630
were not believed by everyone they both

3372
02:31:48,860 --> 02:31:45,450
suffered a lot in their lives physically

3373
02:31:51,940 --> 02:31:48,870
and emotionally and had to claw their

3374
02:31:55,370 --> 02:31:51,950
way out of that existence and that

3375
02:31:57,980 --> 02:31:55,380
cemented their relationship now did

3376
02:32:00,940 --> 02:31:57,990
shaver ever try to do a full

3377
02:32:04,960 --> 02:32:00,950
autobiography of himself only in

3378
02:32:09,400 --> 02:32:04,970
fictionalized way in the dream makers

3379
02:32:12,260 --> 02:32:09,410
the dream makers was a novel he wrote in

3380
02:32:14,960 --> 02:32:12,270
1948 I think and it was going to be part

3381
02:32:16,160 --> 02:32:14,970
of the album bear on press that he was

3382
02:32:18,170 --> 02:32:16,170
he was trying to start his own

3383
02:32:21,590 --> 02:32:18,180
publishing house and how the Baron press

3384
02:32:25,440 --> 02:32:21,600
was the name and he was going to write

3385
02:32:28,320 --> 02:32:25,450
this huge 800 page work

3386
02:32:30,660 --> 02:32:28,330
called the elder world and but in the

3387
02:32:32,940 --> 02:32:30,670
meantime he wrote the dream bakers and

3388
02:32:36,540 --> 02:32:32,950
he went into his early life in his

3389
02:32:39,120 --> 02:32:36,550
school life and a lot of it was true I

3390
02:32:42,360 --> 02:32:39,130
did research and found out that it was

3391
02:32:45,421 --> 02:32:42,370
true but he basically in that story

3392
02:32:48,240 --> 02:32:45,431
tells the history of the voices and when

3393
02:32:51,631 --> 02:32:48,250
when and how the voices came to him but

3394
02:32:54,200 --> 02:32:51,641
that's the closest he got when I put it

3395
02:32:57,091 --> 02:32:54,210
to him in 1975 that we needed to

3396
02:32:59,790 --> 02:32:57,101
collaborate on the book on his life he

3397
02:33:02,610 --> 02:32:59,800
wrote one page for me and sent it to me

3398
02:33:04,950 --> 02:33:02,620
and that was about six months before he

3399
02:33:07,470 --> 02:33:04,960
died and so I was left with this one

3400
02:33:08,720 --> 02:33:07,480
page and basically didn't know what to

3401
02:33:11,671 --> 02:33:08,730
do with it because I didn't really know

3402
02:33:15,240 --> 02:33:11,681
shaver what really went on in his life

3403
02:33:17,551 --> 02:33:15,250
so when I started shaver Truong that was

3404
02:33:19,801 --> 02:33:17,561
my way that I was going to somehow

3405
02:33:21,631 --> 02:33:19,811
collect the information I needed it was

3406
02:33:23,850 --> 02:33:21,641
going to put me in touch with people and

3407
02:33:26,610 --> 02:33:23,860
it did help to some extent but it took

3408
02:33:29,490 --> 02:33:26,620
me all this time to finally get the book

3409
02:33:32,011 --> 02:33:29,500
done because the story is so complex now

3410
02:33:34,110 --> 02:33:32,021
looking back if the lie is a shaver and

3411
02:33:36,660 --> 02:33:34,120
Palmer that you researched what is your

3412
02:33:38,100 --> 02:33:36,670
feeling about them especially Palmer

3413
02:33:40,950 --> 02:33:38,110
would you have liked to have known this

3414
02:33:44,100 --> 02:33:40,960
man as he came out to be not what people

3415
02:33:47,360 --> 02:33:44,110
thought of him oh I think I would have

3416
02:33:50,220 --> 02:33:47,370
really admired him and everyone who

3417
02:33:54,091 --> 02:33:50,230
including you who met him he was a

3418
02:33:56,700 --> 02:33:54,101
charming very personable guy just the

3419
02:33:58,860 --> 02:33:56,710
shaver was but they were very different

3420
02:34:01,080 --> 02:33:58,870
personalities I think I would have liked

3421
02:34:03,750 --> 02:34:01,090
him although I think it would have been

3422
02:34:06,330 --> 02:34:03,760
exasperated in some ways not knowing

3423
02:34:08,881 --> 02:34:06,340
what to believe because people who knew

3424
02:34:11,520 --> 02:34:08,891
him for long periods of time even even

3425
02:34:13,770 --> 02:34:11,530
then weren't sure what he was telling

3426
02:34:16,620 --> 02:34:13,780
him was true now the interesting thing

3427
02:34:19,650 --> 02:34:16,630
too where as Schafer retired to this

3428
02:34:22,801 --> 02:34:19,660
little cottage in rural Arkansas in his

3429
02:34:24,900 --> 02:34:22,811
hometown and Amherst Wisconsin where he

3430
02:34:26,551 --> 02:34:24,910
had moved and his family moved he was a

3431
02:34:29,820 --> 02:34:26,561
pillar of the community Ray Palmer oh

3432
02:34:32,430 --> 02:34:29,830
yeah definitely he was a member of the

3433
02:34:35,160 --> 02:34:32,440
school board for years there this kind

3434
02:34:38,030 --> 02:34:35,170
of stuff never really got out but he was

3435
02:34:39,270 --> 02:34:38,040
in the Lions Club and and his wife

3436
02:34:41,310 --> 02:34:39,280
Marjorie

3437
02:34:43,650 --> 02:34:41,320
she started a couple of women's clubs

3438
02:34:45,930 --> 02:34:43,660
there they became definitely a pillar of

3439
02:34:49,080 --> 02:34:45,940
society there now the impression I got

3440
02:34:51,921 --> 02:34:49,090
when I first entered the door with my

3441
02:34:54,570 --> 02:34:51,931
companions is that Marjorie was very

3442
02:34:56,520 --> 02:34:54,580
protective towards Rayne we understand

3443
02:34:59,520 --> 02:34:56,530
because of his condition and when we saw

3444
02:35:01,830 --> 02:34:59,530
him in 1965 this is some years after he

3445
02:35:03,841 --> 02:35:01,840
suffered an accident in the basement of

3446
02:35:06,780 --> 02:35:03,851
his home where he fell and he hurt

3447
02:35:09,961 --> 02:35:06,790
himself and he was barely able to walk

3448
02:35:12,990 --> 02:35:09,971
after that that was in 1950 right just

3449
02:35:15,720 --> 02:35:13,000
before they moved to Amherst and what's

3450
02:35:18,870 --> 02:35:15,730
even more unusual is at that point they

3451
02:35:22,230 --> 02:35:18,880
also would thought he was gonna die but

3452
02:35:25,140 --> 02:35:22,240
he claimed in his books that he was

3453
02:35:28,950 --> 02:35:25,150
operated on by a team of doctors from

3454
02:35:31,171 --> 02:35:28,960
the astral plane including the ghost or

3455
02:35:34,020 --> 02:35:31,181
spirit of the doctor who supposedly

3456
02:35:36,301 --> 02:35:34,030
botched the operation on his spine when

3457
02:35:38,730 --> 02:35:36,311
he was a child that's right and he told

3458
02:35:41,070 --> 02:35:38,740
the story not only in his magazine but

3459
02:35:43,501 --> 02:35:41,080
one of the first people he told it to is

3460
02:35:45,660 --> 02:35:43,511
William handling who then told me the

3461
02:35:49,680 --> 02:35:45,670
story when I visited Hamling in Palm

3462
02:35:52,650 --> 02:35:49,690
Springs in 2009 so it was a very real

3463
02:35:54,961 --> 02:35:52,660
experience for him and Hamling would

3464
02:35:57,091 --> 02:35:54,971
always defer to Ray Palmer or anything

3465
02:35:59,671 --> 02:35:57,101
like that he says yeah maybe he did you

3466
02:36:01,501 --> 02:35:59,681
know I mean what the heck the guy ended

3467
02:36:03,751 --> 02:36:01,511
up walking they said he wasn't gonna

3468
02:36:05,850 --> 02:36:03,761
walk again he could die look what

3469
02:36:08,190 --> 02:36:05,860
happened he ended up walking again I

3470
02:36:12,690 --> 02:36:08,200
know that when I saw him he could walk

3471
02:36:14,610 --> 02:36:12,700
but slowly shuffle kind of yeah yeah and

3472
02:36:17,341 --> 02:36:14,620
and his daughter said he would often

3473
02:36:19,980 --> 02:36:17,351
fall and he would get very angry with

3474
02:36:22,200 --> 02:36:19,990
himself over that but he'd get right

3475
02:36:23,370 --> 02:36:22,210
back up yeah he would get right I mean

3476
02:36:26,970 --> 02:36:23,380
the guy was amazing

3477
02:36:30,060 --> 02:36:26,980
he was totally amazing he had a will

3478
02:36:31,230 --> 02:36:30,070
power to the nth degree and you kinda

3479
02:36:33,120 --> 02:36:31,240
hoped he would have been more successful

3480
02:36:35,610 --> 02:36:33,130
in this latter years because he made

3481
02:36:37,320 --> 02:36:35,620
most of his money I guess from printing

3482
02:36:40,020 --> 02:36:37,330
other people's books and magazines

3483
02:36:42,301 --> 02:36:40,030
rather than publishing his own yeah he

3484
02:36:44,580 --> 02:36:42,311
hadn't set up his own print shop he

3485
02:36:45,810 --> 02:36:44,590
would have probably disappeared from the

3486
02:36:47,820 --> 02:36:45,820
scene entirely

3487
02:36:51,421 --> 02:36:47,830
I think the Palmer magazines would have

3488
02:36:53,190 --> 02:36:51,431
gone away probably in the late sixties

3489
02:36:55,171 --> 02:36:53,200
but in nineteen

3490
02:36:57,511 --> 02:36:55,181
sixty two or three that's when he

3491
02:37:00,301 --> 02:36:57,521
acquired a couple of high speed presses

3492
02:37:02,910 --> 02:37:00,311
he said he put another mortgage on the

3493
02:37:05,040 --> 02:37:02,920
farm and and they set it up in the old

3494
02:37:08,220 --> 02:37:05,050
schoolhouse there and they were printing

3495
02:37:11,100 --> 02:37:08,230
books and other things one thing that

3496
02:37:13,980 --> 02:37:11,110
Linda Palmer told me she didn't really

3497
02:37:16,110 --> 02:37:13,990
go along with her father's dreams and

3498
02:37:18,570 --> 02:37:16,120
mysticism she looked kind of

3499
02:37:22,381 --> 02:37:18,580
embarrassing to her she said she has an

3500
02:37:25,290 --> 02:37:22,391
entire chapter in my sequel book called

3501
02:37:27,540 --> 02:37:25,300
sailing down tomorrow River and she

3502
02:37:30,000 --> 02:37:27,550
talks a lot about the people that came

3503
02:37:32,970 --> 02:37:30,010
by to visit they kind of scared her off

3504
02:37:35,910 --> 02:37:32,980
a lot of times but how much they were

3505
02:37:37,890 --> 02:37:35,920
printing out of house you know to to

3506
02:37:40,370 --> 02:37:37,900
make money they had about 17 employees

3507
02:37:43,350 --> 02:37:40,380
they had to keep them paid and she

3508
02:37:46,980 --> 02:37:43,360
talked about the time she met L Taylor

3509
02:37:49,440 --> 02:37:46,990
Hance and down in Arizona in Mesa when

3510
02:37:51,631 --> 02:37:49,450
she was trying to get the copyright to

3511
02:37:53,910 --> 02:37:51,641
he walked the Americas the book is war

3512
02:37:56,540 --> 02:37:53,920
over in Lemuria Richard Toronto you have

3513
02:37:59,700 --> 02:37:56,550
a website we can check out yeah WWE

3514
02:38:01,830 --> 02:37:59,710
Bertrand calm it needs a major update

3515
02:38:03,570 --> 02:38:01,840
there's no information about the book

3516
02:38:04,650 --> 02:38:03,580
there but if you go on Amazon you'll

3517
02:38:07,350 --> 02:38:04,660
find the book there

3518
02:38:09,841 --> 02:38:07,360
Geneva do you have a website yet no only

3519
02:38:11,970 --> 02:38:09,851
my Facebook page Geneva Hagen on

3520
02:38:13,801 --> 02:38:11,980
Facebook if you nice she'll accept you

3521
02:38:17,341 --> 02:38:13,811
as a friend you can find Chris O'Brien

3522
02:38:20,040 --> 02:38:17,351
at our strange planet calm you can find

3523
02:38:23,100 --> 02:38:20,050
us at the Peres cast calm on Twitter we

3524
02:38:25,261 --> 02:38:23,110
are also the power cast Geneva Hagen

3525
02:38:27,480 --> 02:38:25,271
Richard Toronto thank you both for

3526
02:38:30,060 --> 02:38:27,490
joining us this week on the power cast

3527
02:38:32,910 --> 02:38:30,070
oh it's been a pleasure to do this it

3528
02:38:35,100 --> 02:38:32,920
brings back so many memories and I have

3529
02:38:36,120 --> 02:38:35,110
so much more I'd like to discuss with

3530
02:38:38,430 --> 02:38:36,130
you Richard

3531
02:38:40,740 --> 02:38:38,440
yeah I feel the same that's like all

3532
02:38:43,230 --> 02:38:40,750
these years in between and we we've got

3533
02:38:46,470 --> 02:38:43,240
so much we could talk about our fan

3534
02:38:48,841 --> 02:38:46,480
themes and all that so and actually I'm

3535
02:38:50,220 --> 02:38:48,851
gonna try a reprint of all the run of

3536
02:38:56,121 --> 02:38:50,230
Sabre Tron's it's like you guys are

3537
02:39:02,520 --> 02:38:59,610
the para cast featuring gene Steinberg

3538
02:39:05,511 --> 02:39:02,530
and Christopher O'Brien is a copyrighted

3539
02:39:09,241 --> 02:39:05,521
presentation of making the impossible

3540
02:39:13,770 --> 02:39:09,251
Incorporated tune in next week for a new